Check that you still are using ntp and the systemd virus hasn't taken
over yet another part of your OS.
systemctl status ntp
Should be state it is active.
systemctl status systemd-timesyncd
Should report not found.
---druck
On 04/12/2023 14:21, David Taylor wrote:
RasPi-5 4 GB.
APT update/upgrade from a mid-November OS (possibly Oct-10?) to the
current version (Dec-03) and noticed a major drop in excellent NTP
timekeeping performance. Was there anything which might have caused
this? Thanks! Current data:
https://satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_raspi-28.php
All NTPsec settings look the same, as far as I can tell. Servers the
same. Just something in the OS which has changed possibly lowering the
CPU response, perhaps it's sleeping for moments or something. Process
priorities? Suggestions welcome!
I know there's a Bookworm in beta but no idea whether this issue is
fixed, or even known about?
Check that you still are using ntp and the systemd virus hasn't taken
over yet another part of your OS.
systemctl status ntp
Should be state it is active.
systemctl status systemd-timesyncd
Should report not found.
Such threads are NOT encouraging ....
There SHOULD be almost NO diff between using Deb
derivs on a Pi-3/4/5 ... but is that TRUE ???
If Pi's are becoming a total pain in the ass, well,
I'll have to look for new solutions.
On 06/12/2023 07:34, 56g.1173 wrote:
Such threads are NOT encouraging ....
There SHOULD be almost NO diff between using Deb
derivs on a Pi-3/4/5 ... but is that TRUE ???
If Pi's are becoming a total pain in the ass, well,
I'll have to look for new solutions.
I think the blame may be laid at the changes within the OS, rather than totally in the hardware itself.
On 06/12/2023 11:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Essentially systemd is forcing old code that has been stable for years
to be rewritten to conform to it - as far as I can tell.
Thus invalidating all the old help files and tutorials on it.
It that 'progress' that Liberals love to worship.
It's not the first time that something like this has happened in the
Linux environment, and lack of backwards compatibility is a rather inconvenient and tiresome "feature".
Many people I know would be entirely happy with Wordstar on CP/M and a
dot matrix printer....Come to think of it a pi Zero with a bit of screen added and Joes Own Editor would do that.
Essentially systemd is forcing old code that has been stable for years
to be rewritten to conform to it - as far as I can tell.
Thus invalidating all the old help files and tutorials on it.
It that 'progress' that Liberals love to worship.
It is the bane of all software - and it forces you to upgrade constantly
or never upgrade at all.
On 06/12/2023 07:56, David Taylor wrote:
On 06/12/2023 07:34, 56g.1173 wrote:
Such threads are NOT encouraging ....
There SHOULD be almost NO diff between using Deb derivs on a
Pi-3/4/5 ... but is that TRUE ???
If Pi's are becoming a total pain in the ass, well,
I'll have to look for new solutions.
I think the blame may be laid at the changes within the OS, rather than
totally in the hardware itself.
Essentially systemd is forcing old code that has been stable for years
to be rewritten to conform to it - as far as I can tell.
Thus invalidating all the old help files and tutorials on it.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Many people I know would be entirely happy with Wordstar on CP/M and a
dot matrix printer....Come to think of it a pi Zero with a bit of screen
added and Joes Own Editor would do that.
Why use a clone when you can use the original on a Pico :-) https://kevinboone.me/cpicom.html
and I'm sure you could do the dot matrix bit with a Pico too: https://magpi.raspberrypi.com/articles/giant-dot-matrix-printer
On 06/12/2023 14:24, Theo wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:No mass storage. No output for an 80x25 style screen. I love my Picos finally, but they cannot even drive a floppy disk.
Many people I know would be entirely happy with Wordstar on CP/M and a
dot matrix printer....Come to think of it a pi Zero with a bit of screen >>> added and Joes Own Editor would do that.
Why use a clone when you can use the original on a Pico :-)
https://kevinboone.me/cpicom.html
Whereas a Zero can come with an SSD an HDMI attached screen and
probably drive a parallel port.
In terms of a 'word processing station' I think that is about ideal.
and I'm sure you could do the dot matrix bit with a Pico too:
https://magpi.raspberrypi.com/articles/giant-dot-matrix-printer
all very ingenious, but...I guess a zero running Raspios could drive a
modern inkjet or laser printer via USB.
On 06/12/2023 07:34, 56g.1173 wrote:
Such threads are NOT encouraging ....
There SHOULD be almost NO diff between using Deb
derivs on a Pi-3/4/5 ... but is that TRUE ???
If Pi's are becoming a total pain in the ass, well,
I'll have to look for new solutions.
I think the blame may be laid at the changes within the OS, rather than totally in the hardware itself.
As for "time-keeping" ... normally the Pi looks for
certain internet time servers - and should thus keep
perfect time, likely to the millisecond.
Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up
with an 80x24 screen anymore.
GUI/WYSIWYG is a lot better. There are a number of medium-power
word processors that run on Linux and the ubiquitous LibreOffice
suite adds even more clout. For dirt simple, use Leafpad and friends.
To be honest, those screens with very limited capability and no
distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS.
In terms of commercial computin, windows were a huge step backward in productivity.
On 12/6/23 10:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2023 14:24, Theo wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:No mass storage. No output for an 80x25 style screen. I love my
Many people I know would be entirely happy with Wordstar on CP/M and a >>>> dot matrix printer....Come to think of it a pi Zero with a bit of
screen
added and Joes Own Editor would do that.
Why use a clone when you can use the original on a Pico :-)
https://kevinboone.me/cpicom.html
Picos finally, but they cannot even drive a floppy disk.
Whereas a Zero can come with an SSD an HDMI attached screen and
probably drive a parallel port.
In terms of a 'word processing station' I think that is about ideal.
Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up
with an 80x24 screen anymore.
GUI/WYSIWYG is a lot better.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:27:00 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
To be honest, those screens with very limited capability and no
distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS.
Depends how you use them. When I used terminals I usually had three
or four on my desk (and from time to time found myself typing on the wrong keyboard). These days (since around 1990 when I met my first X terminal) I tend to have more terminals but they're all on the one (or two) big
screen(s) and use the same keyboard. They're also colour, tabbed and come with big scrollback buffers - way nicer than 1980s terminals even before
you throw in the window manager with unlimited virtual desktops for separating threads of activity.
In terms of commercial computin, windows were a huge step backward in
productivity.
Nah, you just have to use them right - now IDEs OTOH ...
and no distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS
Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up with anTo be honest, those screens with very limited capability and no
80x24 screen anymore.
distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS.
In terms of commercial computin, windows were a huge step backward in productivity.
GUI/WYSIWYG is a lot better.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:27:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It all depends in what you're used to writing code (or text) on:Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up with anTo be honest, those screens with very limited capability and no
80x24 screen anymore.
distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS.
In terms of commercial computin, windows were a huge step backward in
productivity.
On 07/12/2023 13:21, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:27:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Commercial IT users do not write code at all.
It all depends in what you're used to writing code (or text) on:Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up with anTo be honest, those screens with very limited capability and no
80x24 screen anymore.
distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS.
In terms of commercial computin, windows were a huge step backward in
productivity.
They look up and enter data in giant mainframe databases.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:27:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up with an
80x24 screen anymore.
To be honest, those screens with very limited capability and no
distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS.
In terms of commercial computin, windows were a huge step backward in
productivity.
It all depends in what you're used to writing code (or text) on:
- The base case has to a box of 80 column punch cards and a 12 key hand
punch: the standard kit when I learnt to program computers, first
assembler then COBOL: many of us carried a stack of 20 cards: the
minimal set of cards that a COBOL compiler would compile without
complaints
- paper tape was an improvement (could be written and read with a teletype
or, better, a Flexowriter. But its main advantage over cards was that it
couldn't be scrambled if you dropped it.
- next step was the use a teletype as a terminal, but only because it
could be used interactively. The standard interface for minicomputers
and the early microcomputers.
- an 80 x 24 monochrome Visual Display Unit was the next step up but its
ease of use depended entirely on the software driving it: a lot of
mainframes sed block-mode screens: you could locally edit a screenful of
text before hitting 'SEND', which caused the editor program to append
the current screenful the the file and show you the next 24 lines. This
was slightly better than using a teletype and was the way you programmed
almost all mainframes. Minicomputers and 2 gen microcomputers uses what
was effectively a teletype fitted with a 80 x 24 display instead of a
paper tape reader and punch. The architype at this stage was a DEC VT100
or one of the monochrome Wyse devices.
- then, finally, we got colour graphic terminals but know what, IME you're
no more productive writing code on these than on a Wyse or DEC: and know
what, I prefer to write code on a modern Linux system with a bog
standard monochrome text editor, such as vi, microEmacs or, currently,
gedit and to use 'make' to compile C and 'ant' to
compile Java and with everything run from the command line in a console
window.
GUI/WYSIWYG is a lot better.
Not in my book. I've tried IDEs and don't like them - most just clutter
the screen and the mouse just gets in the way if its used for anything
much more than simple cut'n paste operations or launching applications.
On 2023-12-07, Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:27:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up with an
80x24 screen anymore.
To be honest, those screens with very limited capability and no
distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS.
In terms of commercial computin, windows were a huge step backward in
productivity.
It all depends in what you're used to writing code (or text) on:
- The base case has to a box of 80 column punch cards and a 12 key hand
punch: the standard kit when I learnt to program computers, first
assembler then COBOL: many of us carried a stack of 20 cards: the
minimal set of cards that a COBOL compiler would compile without
complaints
I was usually able to get access to a keypunch, although sometimes it
meant waiting until the keypunch staff was off for lunch. In a pinch I
did use one of those hand punches; I affixed a tag to it saying
"Programmers have priority on this punch!"
- paper tape was an improvement (could be written and read with a
teletype
or, better, a Flexowriter. But its main advantage over cards was that
it couldn't be scrambled if you dropped it.
I never did use paper tape for programming, but many of our customers
sent us data on paper tape so I became the local guru, even doing
several re-writes of the IOCS to get the desired results.
operators console - they didn't use operator consoles with screens: those- next step was the use a teletype as a terminal, but only because itMy nect machines were ICL 1900s which all had a teletype as the
could be used interactively. The standard interface for minicomputers
and the early microcomputers.
Being a denizen of the mainframe world, I didn't get to play with
teletypes much - at least in a work environment.
Ah yes, I remember mainframe terminals and their programming nightmares.
I did manage to port Dungeon to that environment, which took some doing.
When I start getting weird about non-computing things, my wife says,
"Why does everything have to be such a huge project?" But with IDEs, everything _does_ have to be a project. Makefiles are so much simpler.
Having said that, there are times when I find a GUI more convenient -
but more often than not a good old CLI does the job much more quickly
and easily. I reserve the right to use whatever method works best at
the time, and resent any attempt to force me into a mold, however pretty
the graphics may be.
On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:35:01 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I was usually able to get access to a keypunch, although sometimes it
meant waiting until the keypunch staff was off for lunch. In a pinch I
did use one of those hand punches; I affixed a tag to it saying
"Programmers have priority on this punch!"
We used 12 key punches in the first programming shop I worked in, and yes,
we hand keyes patches as well as complete programs if our keypunch pool
was busy (this was a small computer bureau).
Being a denizen of the mainframe world, I didn't get to play with
teletypes much - at least in a work environment.
So what were you on - IBM, Burroughs or what?
Ah yes, I remember mainframe terminals and their programming nightmares.
I did manage to port Dungeon to that environment, which took some doing.
Indeed, though the ICL trick of locally editing the current page was relatively user-friendly, but I never did like the way the OS/400 editor
(on IBM AS/400 systems) worked.
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 21:00:41 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up
with an 80x24 screen anymore.
There's three of them open on this desktop now, although for
serious work I usually use 80x<as much as I can fit> terminals.
GUI/WYSIWYG is a lot better. There are a number of medium-power
word processors that run on Linux and the ubiquitous LibreOffice
suite adds even more clout. For dirt simple, use Leafpad and friends.
Yet when I need to write a letter and snail mail it I use vi and
groff - old habits die hard and 1980s documents still work fine.
On 07/12/2023 06:53, 56g.1173 wrote:
As for "time-keeping" ... normally the Pi looks for
certain internet time servers - and should thus keep
perfect time, likely to the millisecond.
Actually the RPi, all models, can do much better than millisecond, down
to tens of microseconds when you add a GPS/PPS device. In the instance
I reported the only update was an upgrade of the OS (and its components).
Here's a RasPi-400 Wi-Fi synced to in-house stratum-1 NTP servers:
https://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/raspi24_ntp-b.html
within about 100 microseconds or better.
The two RasPi-5 are running off the same 5 GHz Wi-Fi as is the RPi-400.
I'll try changing one of them to the 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi but I'm not expecting
any improvement!
On 07/12/2023 10:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:27:00 +0000But you do not spend your days listening to customers and entering their details on the same screen over and over. Or writing a series of letters
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
To be honest, those screens with very limited capability and no
distraction were far far more productive than today's GUIS.
Depends how you use them. When I used terminals I usually had three >> or four on my desk (and from time to time found myself typing on the
wrong
keyboard). These days (since around 1990 when I met my first X
terminal) I
tend to have more terminals but they're all on the one (or two) big
screen(s) and use the same keyboard. They're also colour, tabbed and come
with big scrollback buffers - way nicer than 1980s terminals even before
you throw in the window manager with unlimited virtual desktops for
separating threads of activity.
over and over. Or checking in today's stock, and booking it out again.
That is the reality of commercial computing, where it actually *aided* productivity.
In terms of commercial computin, windows were a huge step backward in
productivity.
Nah, you just have to use them right - now IDEs OTOH ...
The last time I peeked at a winders PC in a bank, it was running nothing
but an IBM terminal emulator with an 80x25 screen hooked up to a
mainframe somewhere in probably Berkshire.
On 12/7/23 3:41 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 21:00:41 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up
with an 80x24 screen anymore.
There's three of them open on this desktop now, although for
serious work I usually use 80x<as much as I can fit> terminals.
Ah ... but writing TEXT ... and "Word-Processing" ... are
entirely different things.
Yep, you can do TEXT with nano or maybe something a tad
better. But to craft an appealing DOCUMENT is far and
above that level. Docs have to LOOK GOOD. Nano ain't
gonna do that. LibreOffice instead these days .......
Yet when I need to write a letter and snail mail it I use vi and
groff - old habits die hard and 1980s documents still work fine.
Actually, I *remove* Vi and its ilk from every distro I install.
HATEFUL apps. Never EVER wanna see them - as bad as "edlin" from
the early DOS days.
"Mail" is not "word processing" either. Generally it's pure TEXT.
If it's anything important you do it with a REAL word-processor
and then mail a PDF attachment.
Good old ASCII has it's place - but ONLY a place.
First off ... 5ghz is MUCH worse at penetrating common
structures. Everything I'd been doing still relied on
2.4 ... easy 25%/50% better signal.
And, as said, do you REALLY need micosecond+ accuracy ?
Beyond microsecond you're dealing with speed-of-electricity/
speed-of-light issues and Einie sez you're screwed. Only
dedicated scientific devices do better - and their timing
is RELATIVE, only for THAT device. Consider the LIGO
grav "telescope" as an example. It's not using NTP to
do its work.
On 05/12/2023 17:30, druck wrote:
Check that you still are using ntp and the systemd virus hasn't taken
over yet another part of your OS.
systemctl status ntp
Should be state it is active.
systemctl status systemd-timesyncd
Should report not found.
---druck
Many thanks for that. TL:DR: it's just ntp.
However, it appears to be NTPsec rather than the older NTP I normally use.
Detailed report:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
pi@RasPi-29:/var/lib $ systemctl status systemd-timesyncd
Unit systemd-timesyncd.service could not be found.
pi@RasPi-29:/var/lib $ systemctl status ntp
* ntpsec.service - Network Time Service
Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/ntpsec.service; enabled; preset: enabled)
Active: active (running) since Sun 2023-12-03 15:04:12 GMT; 2 days ago
Docs: man:ntpd(8)
Process: 846 ExecStart=/usr/libexec/ntpsec/ntp-systemd-wrapper (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Main PID: 856 (ntpd)
Tasks: 1 (limit: 4915)
CPU: 10.267s
CGroup: /system.slice/ntpsec.service
`-856 /usr/sbin/ntpd -p /run/ntpd.pid -c /etc/ntpsec/ntp.conf -g -N -u ntpsec:ntpsec
Dec 05 19:04:12 RasPi-29 ntpd[856]: LOG: frequency file /var/lib/ntp/ntp.drift-tmp: No such file or directory
.
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From the "Process:" line it looks like systemd has poked its nose in somehow. The last line notes that a directory in /var/lib was missing, although I think the drift files only affects fresh starts.
Nevertheless I created the missing directory in case it makes any
difference, appreciating that it may need recreating every boot as it's
in /var.
systemctl status ntpsec
produces the same output.
When I start getting weird about non-computing things, my wife says,
"Why does everything have to be such a huge project?" But with IDEs, everything_does_ have to be a project. Makefiles are so much simpler.
On 12/7/23 6:13 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The last time I peeked at a winders PC in a bank, it was running nothing
but an IBM terminal emulator with an 80x25 screen hooked up to a
mainframe somewhere in probably Berkshire.
Heh ! I saw that recently in a US-based bank ! The moment you
depart from the "usual" it's back to mostly terminal-based
apps. They're 25 years behind the curve and I don't think it's
gonna get any better, given modern money constraints.
In the USA there's something called the "ADA", "Americans
with Disabilities Act". In truth, anyone over 65 DOES have
some disabilities - understanding, even SEEING, those damned
phone apps all the banks want everyone to use for everything.
There are also LOTS of lawyers who specialize in ADA issues.
MAYbe it's time to sue the shit out of those asshole banks ?
I'm over 65.
My "phone" is a FLIP ... tiny tiny screen. You CANNOT fill
out complex forms with it. I am *not* gonna buy anything
bigger/more-complex. "Phones" are for PHONE CALLS in my
view of things. I don't even like "texts". And the SECURITY
for phone apps - APPALLING !
There is the tool ntpmon included with ntpsec. Try it.
A question: Can you show the MRTG setup to produce the curves
linkled to on the first post?
On 08/12/2023 06:08, 56g.1173 wrote:
First off ... 5ghz is MUCH worse at penetrating common
structures. Everything I'd been doing still relied on
2.4 ... easy 25%/50% better signal.
And, as said, do you REALLY need micosecond+ accuracy ?
Beyond microsecond you're dealing with speed-of-electricity/
speed-of-light issues and Einie sez you're screwed. Only
dedicated scientific devices do better - and their timing
is RELATIVE, only for THAT device. Consider the LIGO
grav "telescope" as an example. It's not using NTP to
do its work.
Just why I tried comparing 2.4 and 5 GHz, but it made no difference in
this particular case. I didn't expect it to, but it was worth a test.
We've found in the past that "second" level timing is not good enough
if, for example, you are comparing log files between different
locations, and there are dozens of entries per second. Another use if
where you are providing sounds from separate devices, for example voices
in a choir, The ear/brain can detect differences of under 100 ms.
In this case, the question is still unanswered - why did an OS upgrade
ruin what was excellent timekeeping?
pi@RasPi-29:/var/lib $ systemctl status ntp
* ntpsec.service - Network Time Service
Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/ntpsec.service; enabled; preset: enabled)
Active: active (running) since Sun 2023-12-03 15:04:12 GMT; 2 days ago
Docs: man:ntpd(8)
Process: 846 ExecStart=/usr/libexec/ntpsec/ntp-systemd-wrapper
(code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Main PID: 856 (ntpd)
Tasks: 1 (limit: 4915)
CPU: 10.267s
CGroup: /system.slice/ntpsec.service
`-856 /usr/sbin/ntpd -p /run/ntpd.pid -c
/etc/ntpsec/ntp.conf -g -N -u ntpsec:ntpsec
Dec 05 19:04:12 RasPi-29 ntpd[856]: LOG: frequency file /var/lib/ntp/ntp.drift-tmp: No such file or directory
From the "Process:" line it looks like systemd has poked its nose in
somehow. The last line notes that a directory in /var/lib was missing, although I think the drift files only affects fresh starts.
Nevertheless I created the missing directory in case it makes any
difference, appreciating that it may need recreating every boot as
it's in /var.
systemctl status ntpsec
produces the same output.
But that is only telling you that the daemon is running but not what it is doing. Use "ntpq -pn" to query what peers it is using and if the daemon
can reach them in the first place.
On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 01:17:30 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
On 12/7/23 3:41 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 21:00:41 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Agreed ... but I don't think anybody is going to put up
with an 80x24 screen anymore.
There's three of them open on this desktop now, although for
serious work I usually use 80x<as much as I can fit> terminals.
Ah ... but writing TEXT ... and "Word-Processing" ... are
entirely different things.
When I see word processor I think what a food processor does.
Yep, you can do TEXT with nano or maybe something a tad
better. But to craft an appealing DOCUMENT is far and
above that level. Docs have to LOOK GOOD. Nano ain't
gonna do that. LibreOffice instead these days .......
That's what groff is for - I far prefer markup to wysywig.
Yet when I need to write a letter and snail mail it I use vi and
groff - old habits die hard and 1980s documents still work fine.
Actually, I *remove* Vi and its ilk from every distro I install.
HATEFUL apps. Never EVER wanna see them - as bad as "edlin" from
the early DOS days.
I've been using vi for a long time - it's a great text editor.
"Mail" is not "word processing" either. Generally it's pure TEXT.
Who mentioned email ?
If it's anything important you do it with a REAL word-processor
and then mail a PDF attachment.
If it's important I do it with vi and groff to generate a PDF or
print a letter.
Good old ASCII has it's place - but ONLY a place.
Yep UTF-8 is far more useful.
Here's the ntpq -pn output. RasPi-28 is the problem device, RasPi-24
is an RPi-400 similarly configured:
192.168.0.20 is a GPSDO/NTP server from Leo Bodnar. Two things which surprise me are (1) the very low count of remote servers which
RasPi-28 lists, and (2) the very high jitter reported by RasPi-28 for
the LeoNTP server. Should be much less.
I wish I could use regular NTP and not NTPsec!
minutes (you poll about every 32 seconds and 377 indicates the last 10
polls were successful).
On 12/8/23 2:57 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
When I see word processor I think what a food processor does.
I'd disagree. "Documents" and "text" really aren't the
same things, for the same purposes.
Yep, you can do TEXT with nano or maybe something a tad
better. But to craft an appealing DOCUMENT is far and
above that level. Docs have to LOOK GOOD. Nano ain't
gonna do that. LibreOffice instead these days .......
That's what groff is for - I far prefer markup to wysywig.
Yuk !
Yet when I need to write a letter and snail mail it I use vi and
groff - old habits die hard and 1980s documents still work fine.
WORK fine ... but for PUBLICATION ???
Actually, I *remove* Vi and its ilk from every distro I install.
HATEFUL apps. Never EVER wanna see them - as bad as "edlin" from
the early DOS days.
I've been using vi for a long time - it's a great text editor.
It's crap - just a far less friendly version of nano.
So I always REMOVE it so it can't pop up by accident.
Good old ASCII has it's place - but ONLY a place.
Yep UTF-8 is far more useful.
Again YUK. ASCII should have remained ASCII and
UTF and friends implemented separately.
DO miss those funky 128+ graphics chars that were
in the old IBM roms. Made it so easy to make
text-based forms and such. They still exist
in UTF, but at very obscure values and with
the added 2-byte complications.
Yet when I need to write a letter and snail mail it I use vi
and groff - old habits die hard and 1980s documents still work fine.
WORK fine ... but for PUBLICATION ???
On 2023-12-10, 56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
On 12/8/23 2:57 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
When I see word processor I think what a food processor does.
:-)
I'd disagree. "Documents" and "text" really aren't the same things,
for the same purposes.
Use the right tool for the job at hand. One size doesn't necessarily
fit all.
Yep, you can do TEXT with nano or maybe something a tad better.
But to craft an appealing DOCUMENT is far and above that level.
Docs have to LOOK GOOD. Nano ain't gonna do that. LibreOffice
instead these days .......
That's what groff is for - I far prefer markup to wysywig.
Yuk !
Different strokes for different folks. I defend the right to choose.
Why worry if the end result is the same?
Yet when I need to write a letter and snail mail it I use vi and
groff - old habits die hard and 1980s documents still work fine.
WORK fine ... but for PUBLICATION ???
There are various markup systems that do a good job for publication.
Heck, you can even write HTML with a text editor.
I've been using vi for a long time - it's a great text editor.
I really can't get on with nano.My favourite used to be microemacs but I
It's crap - just a far less friendly version of nano.
Heck, you can even write HTML with a text editor.I never write it with anything else, unless you count PHP.
On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 00:15:55 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Yet when I need to write a letter and snail mail it I use vi
and groff - old habits die hard and 1980s documents still work fine.
WORK fine ... but for PUBLICATION ???
Of course, groff descends from a long line of typesetting tools designed for publication by professionals in the field. In the mid 1980s I was using sqtroff to typeset reference books out of databases. The
postscript it generated would be proof printed on an inkjet and set on a linotron at Cambridge University Press.
On 08/12/2023 11:17, Tauno Voipio wrote:
There is the tool ntpmon included with ntpsec. Try it.
A question: Can you show the MRTG setup to produce the curves
linkled to on the first post?
Thanks, Tauno!
I'll take a look at ntpmon which is a tool I've not used before.
The MRTG setup is described here:
https://www.satsignal.eu/raspberry-pi/monitoring.html#ntp
On 10/12/2023 19:18, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Heck, you can even write HTML with a text editor.I never write it with anything else, unless you count PHP.
On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 04:18:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/12/2023 19:18, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Heck, you can even write HTML with a text editor.I never write it with anything else, unless you count PHP.
Same here:
- 'gedit' to write the page and spell check it
- 'tidy' to check for HTML markup mistakesDont bother. Geany 'understands' HTML and php - and javascript - and
- 'firefox' to inspect the page for layout stupidities.
- 'firefox' to inspect the page for layout stupidities.More than that. firefox has a pretty good javascript debugger as well.
Also I use the apache error logs to monitor php syntax errors.
On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 13:56:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I like firefox a lot, though Brave is my usual browser, as much for its built-in ad-killers and website blockers an anything else.- 'firefox' to inspect the page for layout stupidities.More than that. firefox has a pretty good javascript debugger as well.
Also I use the apache error logs to monitor php syntax errors.I don't use php much: so far its only been when I've needed to grab user- supplied content from a set of related boxes on one of my web-pages and
add the set to a queue for overnight processing before e-mailing the
result back to the OP.
Other applications I have use mysql databases at the back end and its
pretty hard to access those direct from HTML!
On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 10:10:32 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Other applications I have use mysql databases at the back end and its
pretty hard to access those direct from HTML!
There's SQL injection via CGI query parameters if you're careless
about SQL query construction based on user input - always remember little Bobby Tables.
https://xkcd.com/327/
On 11/12/2023 16:48, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 13:56:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Whether or not you use it depends on how much interfacing you need to do
I like firefox a lot, though Brave is my usual browser, as much for its- 'firefox' to inspect the page for layout stupidities.More than that. firefox has a pretty good javascript debugger as well.
built-in ad-killers and website blockers an anything else.
Also I use the apache error logs to monitor php syntax errors.I don't use php much: so far its only been when I've needed to grab user-
supplied content from a set of related boxes on one of my web-pages and
add the set to a queue for overnight processing before e-mailing the
result back to the OP.
with the server side OS and other apps. Likewise Javascript, which gives
you an actively responsive interface in the browser itself, and via AJAX calls, fast access to changes server side without refreshing the whole screen.
Example: My heating controller main panel accessed via a bowser needs to reflect in almost real time what the server side is doing. So it
contains several timed javascript loops that interrogate the local
system time,
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