No matching security types
I have a Pi 3B, fresh install of Bookworm aarch64. I have installed only a few packages, nothing network related. I updated the index, upgraded all stock packages, and enabled VNC. Bonjour doesn't work this time, but I'm used to that being a crapshoot.I did reboot after the last raspi-config session. Network is good, ssh works (even -Y), vnc is running:
jon@penguin:~$ nmap 192.168.1.128
Starting Nmap 7.80 ( https://nmap.org ) at 2023-11-15 12:41 CST
Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.128
Host is up (0.063s latency).
Not shown: 997 closed ports
PORT STATE SERVICE
22/tcp open ssh
53/tcp open domain
5900/tcp open vnc
Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 1.32 seconds
My client is a Chromebook (penguin), but it's also Arm (also aarch64), so my software selection is very limited. I have TigerVNC, and I have Remmina, but I can't install much more than that easily:! ] No matching security types." Remina with similar options will error and quit with "Unknown authentication scheme from VNC server: 13,5 [ Close ]."
jon@penguin:~$ uname -a
Linux penguin 5.15.130-20472-g682e24dd583b #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Oct 25 18:25:04 PDT 2023 aarch64 GNU/Linux
When I try TigerVNC, I leave encryption enabled, allow None, allow TLS with anonymous certificates, disable X509 certificates (also tried allowing X509). Authentication allows None, Standard VNC, or user/pass. When I try to connect, TigerVNC reports "[
I've read enough to know that the VNC backend on Bookworm doesn't match most of the HOWTOs online, but I'm still lost. Which switch did I forget to flip? Do I need to manually do some key generate/exchange somewhere? I'm running headless, but I do knowthat X applications run fine over SSH on my Chromebook display, they're just slooooow. Remina also supports RDP, but I haven't explored that option yet.
Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off
if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from
another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.
I've been doing my own research for 3 days. I've been using Linux as a desktop OS since 1996, so I've been around the block a few times, but I've never had to use VNC. And now that I need to, I feel like it's 1996 again and there's a dotfile somewherethat has to be hand-edited with a 128-bit key. You can go ahead and use the big words with me.
Anyway, that link, and almost everything written before RPi changed the backend 3 weeks ago, basically says "Just give up and use RealVNC like everybody else." But I can't do that, because there is no binary RealVNC for my Chromebook in the regularrepository. The release notes for Bookworm openly admit that VNC isn't a workable option on RPi 32-bit, but *should* still work on 64, so here I am. Because it doesn't look like it.
On 16/11/2023 05:30, Jon Pennington wrote:
I've been doing my own research for 3 days. I've been using Linux as a
desktop OS since 1996, so I've been around the block a few times, but
I've never had to use VNC. And now that I need to, I feel like it's
1996 again and there's a dotfile somewhere that has to be hand-edited
with a 128-bit key. You can go ahead and use the big words with me.
Anyway, that link, and almost everything written before RPi changed
the backend 3 weeks ago, basically says "Just give up and use RealVNC
like everybody else." But I can't do that, because there is no binary
RealVNC for my Chromebook in the regular repository. The release notes
for Bookworm openly admit that VNC isn't a workable option on RPi
32-bit, but *should* still work on 64, so here I am. Because it
doesn't look like it.
Sorry for appearing daft, but if you only have TigerVNC viewer have you
tried installing Tigervnc server on the Pi?
Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off
if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from
another console.
Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through
SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.
Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through SSH? That justsounds like extra math and extra CPU load.
"Jon Pennington" <actualjp@gmail.com> wrote in message news:b0f9dd01-2177-4911-8c70-c115f71e2f30n@googlegroups.com...
Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication
off if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics,
from another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes
it faster than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and
extra CPU load.
I configured the Real VNC server that is bundled into RasPiOS and can
access it from Real VNC client on Windows (7 and 10) and on Android 13.
I didn't need to configure anything non-standard - it "just worked".
The information at the Android client for the connection to my Pi says "128-bit AES encryption", "JRLE encoding" and a
Mb/sec for a direct IP-to-IP (ie non-cloud) connection - because the
server on the Pi allows direct connections in addition to cloud
connections via RealVNCs servers.
Jon Pennington <actualjp@gmail.com> wrote:
Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off >> if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from
another console.
VNC has always worked for me with SSH forwarding, without using TLS:
$ vncpasswd
- set a password for the VNC session
$ vncserver -geometry 1920x1080 :1
- starts a VNC server on display :1, ie localhost port 5901
Then on your PC:
$ ssh -L 5901:localhost:5901 pi@192.168.1.99
to login to your Pi, and tunnel port 5901 on the Pi to port 5901 on the
local machine.
Then start your VNC client and connect to the VNC server on localhost:1
If you get a blank screen with no apps, you may need to start the desktop.
In the SSH session:
$ export DISPLAY=:1
$ startx &
You can also run X apps 'by hand', eg a terminal and window manager:
$ sudo apt install fvwm
$ export DISPLAY=:1
$ xterm &
$ fvwm &
(~/.vncsession is the place to put commands to run each time you open a new vnc session)
Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through
SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.
They are different. VNC is a pixel-based sharing protocol, ie it renders things on the Pi and pushes blocks of pixels to the PC. With X, everything is rendered on the PC - lines, fonts, etc. VNC speed depends on network bandwidth and compression speed, but X is constrained by latency (lots of messages flying back and forth).
X is slow if your latency is bad (eg over the internet). Protocols like
X2go and NX can speed it up because they reduce the number of roundtrips and hence their impact on latency.
ssh -C can compress any data stream that passes through it, including VNC traffic on a forwarded port, but the VNC traffic is already compressed by
VNC so there's not much point.
Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
Not in my home they are not :-)
On 11/22/23 5:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
Not in my home they are not :-)
Wait until you have plumbing problems !
Just to throw a wrinkle into everything, the latest version of RealVNC viewer, 7.8.0, will connect to a Pi4 running wayvnc. I expect it will
work with a Pi5 too.
On 25/11/2023 01:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
On 11/22/23 5:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Frankly, Plumbers are unobtanium and I installed and service my own
On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
Not in my home they are not :-)
Wait until you have plumbing problems !
plumbing.
Did have a sweep in a few weeks ago, and a boiler service man, but he
didn't fix the aga either.
No one wants to do repair work anymore. They want to make shitloads installing wanky new boilers and the like.
Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
[]
Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
[]
Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
can find and afford.
Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement makes more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run has been used.
The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many corners can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
can find and afford.
Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement makes more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run has been used.
The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many corners can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
[]
Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
No it isn't.
On 26/11/2023 11:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
can find and afford.
Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
(except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement
makes
more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run
has
been used.
The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many
corners
can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
It is pure economics. When a robot assembly line can e.g. spit out PICO
PI boards at less than 6 minutes labour cost, for a skilled
repairer...who the **** is going to fix one?
To call out an engineer to fix a $300 washing machine will likely be
$300 parts and labour.
You might as well buy a new one .
If you want one that wont break and has a 7 year guarantee expect to pay $1000 instead.
It's all down to robotisation. Its far cheaper to buy a new part off an automatic production line than employ an actual human to fix that part.
IT and CAD/CAM and robotisation have destroyed the skilled labour
market, and the high street retail model. Just as the machine loom
destroyed craft weaving.
We (the West) are now a society of consumption that does no production
at all. That's all done in China or some other part of Asia, or South America.
The world is changing, and we can't really turn the clock back.
Amazon is my high street and China is my repairman.
I've been fighting a recalcitrant Aga range stove for months - no one
even returns my calls to fix it.
Finally I managed to dismantle the very last part and fixed that, only
to find that it had coked up *again* due to utterly shit fuel mandated
by the EU for 'low sulphur'...
Luckily I now have that down to less than an hour as I bought all the
right tools. Long drill for the feed pipe and wood working burrs to
smash out all the carbon.
These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it off
Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.
PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller with wifi thermostats went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth more on ebay
than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all who helped make
it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are still logical bugs in
the (heater) programming which I will attend in due course, but in terms
of doing the switching at the right times and temperatures it is simply awesome. So its onto project server, which is the Pi 4B, which is having
its 3D case designed...and then project oil level sensor, but that can wait...
On 11/26/23 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/11/2023 11:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to >>> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you >>> can find and afford.
Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft >>> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement
makes
more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
because parts have become unobtainable because the last production
run has
been used.
The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making >>> repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many
corners
can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods
(is
it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
It is pure economics. When a robot assembly line can e.g. spit out
PICO PI boards at less than 6 minutes labour cost, for a skilled
repairer...who the **** is going to fix one?
To call out an engineer to fix a $300 washing machine will likely be
$300 parts and labour.
You might as well buy a new one .
If you want one that wont break and has a 7 year guarantee expect to
pay $1000 instead.
It's all down to robotisation. Its far cheaper to buy a new part off
an automatic production line than employ an actual human to fix that
part. IT and CAD/CAM and robotisation have destroyed the skilled
labour market, and the high street retail model. Just as the machine
loom destroyed craft weaving.
We (the West) are now a society of consumption that does no production
at all. That's all done in China or some other part of Asia, or South
America.
The world is changing, and we can't really turn the clock back.
Amazon is my high street and China is my repairman.
I've been fighting a recalcitrant Aga range stove for months - no one
even returns my calls to fix it.
Finally I managed to dismantle the very last part and fixed that, only
to find that it had coked up *again* due to utterly shit fuel
mandated by the EU for 'low sulphur'...
Luckily I now have that down to less than an hour as I bought all the
right tools. Long drill for the feed pipe and wood working burrs to
smash out all the carbon.
Be careful you don't compromise any of those tubes,
bad things can result.
Wonder what's wrong with the gas ? Usually carbon
suggests a slightly off air/fuel ratio. Did you
miss a vent tube somewhere ?
Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
every week there's a news story of something burning
down or entire homes exploding into splinters.
I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
intent on switching everyone to electric - UNTIL
somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
national grid ... right down to the level of every
little street.
and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
require electricity and typically the "used water"
is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it off
Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.
Oh, they ARE ... by charging 300 to fix a 300 old stove :-)
Anyway, as for PARTS ... older usually meant "simpler" and
that puts them in the range of what 3-D printing can now do.
PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller with wifi
thermostats went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth
more on ebay than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all
who helped make it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are
still logical bugs in the (heater) programming which I will attend in
due course, but in terms of doing the switching at the right times and
temperatures it is simply awesome. So its onto project server, which
is the Pi 4B, which is having its 3D case designed...and then project
oil level sensor, but that can wait...
Sounds like a good project. Heating/cooling is always a pain
because such systems often use "interesting" wiring and often
24 volts (USA anyhow). Getting the "IQ" down just right will
probably take awhile. I'd suggest a good old 'fuzzy logic'
approach, esp if you have multiple temperature sensors.
Oh ... and if the wi-fi goes down, can you still make the
damned heating work ? "Fail Safe" thinking needs to go
into it all. Oh, gas again, if you're using gas heating
DO look into CO/CO2 monitors that can shut off the whole
thing Just In Case.
On 11/26/23 3:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
[]
Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
No it isn't.
I think it *used* to be ... sort of a "historical pride"
thing - "STILL using great great great Grandpa's pizza
oven !". There are also a lot more people now, with
no more money than before, and thus not enough "old"
appliances to go around.
However the EU, like the USA, seems to have shifted to
the cheap-n-crappy thinking that profits China. If you
want a good washing-machine expect to pay twice as
much - and it still won't be 50s/60s "good".
You could probably rebuild an old washer - Pi
controller, DC motor for the swishing action,
instead of a 'transmission', but it'd COST.
I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was intent on
switching everyone to electric - UNTIL somebody actually DID THE
NUMBERS and they realized they'd have to double or triple the
capacity of the national grid ... right down to the level of every
little street. That was just an unthinkable expense and SUDDENLY the
govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps require electricity
and typically the "used water"
is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
56g.1173 wrote:
Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps require electricityNo sir: lots of water is not required: the pumps that are/were being installed in UK houses as replacements for gas central heating are all extracting heat from outside air (unless the garden contains a large
and typically the "used water"
is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
enough pond to allow it to be used as the heat source) and using it to
heat the water circulating through radiators and the hot water cylinder.
This water CIRCULATES through the pipes connecting radiators etc, so the
same water is used over and over: such a system doesn't require any water from outside the house except to deal with leakage from piss poor installation.
Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
every week there's a news story of something burning
down or entire homes exploding into splinters.
I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
intent on switching everyone to electric -
UNTIL
somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
national grid ... right down to the level of every
little street. That was just an unthinkable expense
and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
require electricity
Our government never did the numbers - or if they did they're
not saying anything
And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
On 27/11/2023 04:18, 56g.1173 wrote:
On 11/26/23 3:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:They did a useful thing in terms of cars, by forcing manufacturers to
On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
[]
Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
No it isn't.
I think it *used* to be ... sort of a "historical pride"
thing - "STILL using great great great Grandpa's pizza
oven !". There are also a lot more people now, with
no more money than before, and thus not enough "old"
appliances to go around.
release car part specifications to anyone who wanted to manufacture aftermarket spares. Or third party independent mechanics.
But mostly the EU are owned by large companies, Arab oil interests and Russian gas interests and the Mafia, similar to the USA.
Which is why we have windmills instead of nuclear power stations. Any
fool can erect a windmill and grab subsidies. And the gas is still
needed when the wind doesn't blow.
However the EU, like the USA, seems to have shifted toActually in many cases they are better.
the cheap-n-crappy thinking that profits China. If you
want a good washing-machine expect to pay twice as
much - and it still won't be 50s/60s "good".
You could probably rebuild an old washer - Pi
controller, DC motor for the swishing action,
instead of a 'transmission', but it'd COST.
Indeed. My latest washing machine is just such a thing. Entirely UK
made. Brushless motor that makes groaning sounds at part throttle.
Slightly cheaper than the Miele brand, but guaranteed the same.
But twice as expensive as some Italian Turkish or Korean crap.
I think that modern technology is enabling craftsmanship at a whole new level. 3D printing, CNC machining, laser cutting - these are all technologies that friends have. I can produce a circuit board via China faster and cheaper than I could punch out an aluminium chassis for
valves (tubes) such as would have been the case in the 1950s. Now I can
even print plastic cases designed to fit them. Or wooden ones for that
retro look.
Its a changing world. Its up to us to try and make sure it doesn't
change too much for whatever we consider to be the 'worse'...
On 27/11/2023 03:58, 56g.1173 wrote:
On 11/26/23 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:It runs on kerosene
On 26/11/2023 11:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to >>>> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient
you
can find and afford.
Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft >>>> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point
replacement makes
more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
because parts have become unobtainable because the last production
run has
been used.
The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of
making
repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many
corners
can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get
knighthoods (is
it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
It is pure economics. When a robot assembly line can e.g. spit out
PICO PI boards at less than 6 minutes labour cost, for a skilled
repairer...who the **** is going to fix one?
To call out an engineer to fix a $300 washing machine will likely be
$300 parts and labour.
You might as well buy a new one .
If you want one that wont break and has a 7 year guarantee expect to
pay $1000 instead.
It's all down to robotisation. Its far cheaper to buy a new part off
an automatic production line than employ an actual human to fix that
part. IT and CAD/CAM and robotisation have destroyed the skilled
labour market, and the high street retail model. Just as the machine
loom destroyed craft weaving.
We (the West) are now a society of consumption that does no
production at all. That's all done in China or some other part of
Asia, or South America.
The world is changing, and we can't really turn the clock back.
Amazon is my high street and China is my repairman.
I've been fighting a recalcitrant Aga range stove for months - no one
even returns my calls to fix it.
Finally I managed to dismantle the very last part and fixed that,
only to find that it had coked up *again* due to utterly shit fuel
mandated by the EU for 'low sulphur'...
Luckily I now have that down to less than an hour as I bought all
the right tools. Long drill for the feed pipe and wood working burrs
to smash out all the carbon.
Be careful you don't compromise any of those tubes,
bad things can result.
Wonder what's wrong with the gas ? Usually carbon
suggests a slightly off air/fuel ratio. Did you
miss a vent tube somewhere ?
It is literally a large paraffin stove.
heating oil slowly fills a baseplate with concentric rings into which
are alternately placed circular wicks, and cylinders of perforated
metal. The wicks help with lighting - in use the rings are hot enough to vaporise the kerosene so the fuel burns as a vapor.
If the fuel level is too low the temperature drops and it starts to burn
via the wicks, produces a lot of soot and eventually goes out.
In use the baseplate where there is a pool of hot oil cokes up and
blocks the feed pipe. The hot oil essentially distils into a
vapourisable component and carbon. Fuel has been getting worse and
worse. I originally used to service it every 18 months. This last fuel
seems only to have lasted 3-4 months without coking up and it caused or exacerbated pother issues. I.e. the stove is equipped with a sort of carburettor. There is a float valve, and a sliding fuel flow valve which
is comprised of a vertical cylinder inside which another cylinder
slides. The inner cylinder has a slot about 10 thou wide and maybe 3/16" long, and that slides past a hole in the outer cylinder. That's the fuel metering - the base of the outer cylinder feed the burner.. Bad
kerosene tends to separate out and fill the slot with a sort of wax,
thereby obstructing fuel flow. I had a succession of problems with everything.
There are no vent tubes as such
Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems likeI am not keen on it either.
every week there's a news story of something burning
down or entire homes exploding into splinters.
But most of the UK runs on it without dying. Statistically it is less dangerous than firearms are in the USA. It used to be cheap, but not
anymore. Now kerosene is the cheapest.
I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
intent on switching everyone to electric - UNTIL
somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
national grid ... right down to the level of every
little street.
I was one of those people. No one listened to me. Ive been banging that
drum for over ten years now.
That was just an unthinkable expense
and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.What 'used water' ?
Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
require electricity and typically the "used water"
is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
But who would accept that? A few years pack I looked inside theThese days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it
off Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.
Oh, they ARE ... by charging 300 to fix a 300 old stove :-)
'electronics' part of the local wastes disposal yard as I had some
really old PCS and CRT based TVS to get rid of. It was full of TVs -
most less than 5 years old.
Anyway, as for PARTS ... older usually meant "simpler" andYes, in many cases it does. My car features HVAC vents that rotate open
that puts them in the range of what 3-D printing can now do.
via little servos on startup. The manufacturer expects you to replace
the whole unit doe $250, but some guy on ebay is printing a little
plastic gear that replaces the shit one that always strips, and he sells
4 for £10 .
Oh, we are full on 240VAC here. the 'interesting' wiring is all mine,PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller with wifi
thermostats went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth
more on ebay than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all
who helped make it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are
still logical bugs in the (heater) programming which I will attend in
due course, but in terms of doing the switching at the right times
and temperatures it is simply awesome. So its onto project server,
which is the Pi 4B, which is having its 3D case designed...and then
project oil level sensor, but that can wait...
Sounds like a good project. Heating/cooling is always a pain
because such systems often use "interesting" wiring and often
24 volts (USA anyhow). Getting the "IQ" down just right will
probably take awhile. I'd suggest a good old 'fuzzy logic'
approach, esp if you have multiple temperature sensors.
from 2001. When I first built the house
Oh ... and if the wi-fi goes down, can you still make the
damned heating work ? "Fail Safe" thinking needs to go
into it all. Oh, gas again, if you're using gas heating
DO look into CO/CO2 monitors that can shut off the whole
thing Just In Case.
If the wifi goes down that means the power has gone down and the CH wont
work anyway.
I have never had a case of long term wifi failure. A temporary wifi
outage upsets the wifi thermometers though. They need rebooting. Another slight bug that needs fixing
In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>,
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
That depends !
If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook with
glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then you're
forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those utensils yes,
gas is better.
But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to say
induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and far
easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.
To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*£^%^&. Just
that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical winner.
I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
turn down the heat and it stops_now_. I haven't tried induction
heading, though, so I can't say how it compares.
in practise we found Induction was a clear practical winner.
On 11/27/23 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It is literally a large paraffin stove.
Wow ! Didn't know they sold those outside
of the 3rd world.
On 2023-11-27, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
That depends !
If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook
with glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then
you're forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those
utensils yes, gas is better.
But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to
say induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and
far easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.
To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*ú^%^&.
Just that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical
winner.
I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
turn down the heat and it stops _now_.
I haven't tried induction heading, though, so I can't say how it
compares.
There is no 'best' - only 'different'. In practise one adapts one's
cooking styles to what one is forced to use.
It is literally a large paraffin stove.
Wow ! Didn't know they sold those outside
of the 3rd world.
They are a hall mark of a certain 'country living' style. In practice a pretty good room heater that you can also cook on, beloved by wet muddy dogs. Will work without electricity in the case of power cuts. So ideal
if you are rural with unreliable electricity and no gas. You can get
ones that run on electricity and gas too. But why bother? electricity is expensive - very expensive and at the moment so too is gas.
https://www.saltirecookers.com/oil-aga-cookers
I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any parameters, quite the reverse.
In Spain, most people who is not using a wood stove in a rural area has moved on to electric cooking because it is just more comfortable, but I think it is a
luxury that people is not treating as such.
Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking as
it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
We converted to a gas stove 20 years ago and have never
had any safety concerns. Mind you, it's a good installation
and we don't cut corners. And gas is so much nicer to cook
with.
Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking as
it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: Bob Latham to Charlie Gibbs on Tue Nov 28 2023 08:05 am
> I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
> heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
> such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any
> parameters, quite the reverse.
>
Induction is awesome and nowadays I would take it rather than gas, but lots of
cooking implements won't work on induction. There is also the fact it is backed
by electricity, so it can get a bit wasteful.
In Spain, most people who is not using a wood stove in a rural area has moved on to electric cooking because it is just more comfortable, but I think it is a
luxury that people is not treating as such.
In message <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
We converted to a gas stove 20 years ago and have never
had any safety concerns. Mind you, it's a good installation
and we don't cut corners. And gas is so much nicer to cook
with.
We used gas for decades and were happy with it, but we moved house nearly
7 years ago and with it bought an electric cooker with induction top. We would not go back to gas - induction is so much nicer to cook with.
More recently I learned that cooking with gas produces nitrogen dioxide
in the house at levels that would be illegal outside! It never occurred
to me before, but it's bleedin' obvious that a blue gas flame in air is
going to be at temperatures that inevitably produce nitrogen dioxide.
Nitrogen dioxide is a powerful irritant to the lungs.
In article <Oye9N.132623$BbXa.67007@fx16.iad>,
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-11-27, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
That depends !
If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook
with glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then
you're forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those
utensils yes, gas is better.
But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to
say induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and
far easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.
To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*£^%^&.
Just that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical
winner.
I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
turn down the heat and it stops _now_.
It does yes but Induction is also *instant* and it gets water boiling
a lot faster than gas.
I haven't tried induction heading, though, so I can't say how it
compares.
Yes, I thought that you probably hadn't.
I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any parameters, quite the reverse.
Then your "stove" is an open fire (so long as
there's wood) or maybe an old metal oil drum
with dried whatever in it. Electricity IS a
luxury ... most forget that it's only been
"widespread" for less than 100 years and
requires a lot of industry to KEEP it going.
The "rural USA" wasn't "electrified" until
the latter 1930s, parts of Europe even later.
Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: Stephen Pelc to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 09:49 pm
> Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
> as
> it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
>
That's new to me. Everybody around me uses vitroceramics with the exception of
old people clinging to old gas equipment, and rural northerns using some wood stove (ie. Cocinas bilvaÃnas)
Meybe people around me is just weird :-P
More recently I learned that cooking with gas produces nitrogen dioxide
in the house at levels that would be illegal outside! It never occurred
to me before, but it's bleedin' obvious that a blue gas flame in air is
going to be at temperatures that inevitably produce nitrogen dioxide.
Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: Stephen Pelc to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 09:49 pm
> Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
> as
> it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
>
That's new to me. Everybody around me uses vitroceramics with the exception of
old people clinging to old gas equipment, and rural northerns using some wood stove (ie. Cocinas bilvaÃnas)
Meybe people around me is just weird :-P
Not only that, but modern airproof insulation has house internal CO2
levels in a range that would make any climate alarmist run screaming for
tranquillizers.
Insulating and sealing a house up without providing heat exchange ventilation is daft.
Insulating and sealing a house up without providing heat exchange ventilation is daft.
Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: 56g.1173 to Richard Falken on Tue Nov 28 2023 10:43 pm
> Then your "stove" is an open fire (so long as
> there's wood) or maybe an old metal oil drum
> with dried whatever in it. Electricity IS a
> luxury ... most forget that it's only been
> "widespread" for less than 100 years and
> requires a lot of industry to KEEP it going.
> The "rural USA" wasn't "electrified" until
> the latter 1930s, parts of Europe even later.
Really, my "stove" in this case is just a fireplace insert with a door you can
close to have the fire enclosed. It has knobs for controlling the oxygen intake
and the draft.
If you need to cook you can let the fire come down to ambers amd then put a pan, a grill or a pot on it. Since the fire is enclosed, temperature raises quite fast. In fact its main drawback, after the high maintenance of the setup,
is that there is not much margin of error because you will burn your food in the blink of an eye if you don't pay attention.
I actually have an electric cooktop in the kitchen, mind you, and I produce my
own electricity. In winter, however, I will use the fireplace in order to spare
the solar batteries the stress, and because the fireplace will be alight anyway.
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.
Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.
I've seen cast-iron versions STILL being useful after
about 200 years. Stainless steel might last 500.
Now ... how to control/monitor a Franklin stove with
a Pi ? :-)
On 2023-11-30, 56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.
I've seen cast-iron versions STILL being useful after
about 200 years. Stainless steel might last 500.
Now ... how to control/monitor a Franklin stove with
a Pi ? :-)
Look on the bright side - nobody can hack your stove
and hold your heat for ransom. Or bleed you monthly
with that newfangled HaaS (heat as a service) paradigm.
Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: 56g.1173 to Richard Falken on Wed Nov 29 2023 11:43 pm
> Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
> but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
> to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.
>
That one looks great, but it also has to be hard to get started if the chimney
is cold.
THerefore I suggest adding an electric resistence controlled by a raspberry pi
in order to pre-heat the chimney before the actual fire is started.
Hmm ... automated fuel delivery ? Servo to push more
wood/coal/whatever in when a cool-off is detected ?
Input airflow modulation ?
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