• Re^2: Do your part!

    From Tim Schattkowsky@2:310/31.6 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 18:18:25
    //Hello Jeff, //

    am *15.03.22* um *13:33:51* schriebst Du in der Area *POLITICS*
    an *Ron L.* eine Mail zum Thema *"Re: Do your part!"*.

    And here's the interesting thing: those 1800's electric cars run on
    modern lead/acid batteries. Battery technology has **not** progressed
    very far in 200 years.

    Lead/acid batteries are used in gasoline-powered vehicles to start the engine, etc. Electric vehicles use hydrogen cell batteries, an excellent improvement over the batteries of 200 years ago.

    Actually, most of them run on lithium-ion batteries. Hydrogen cell technologie still is a niche and some keep claiming it already has/will fail. I don't think so, but currently it is insignificant.

    Still, while there have been substantial advances in battery technology since the first cars, it is not as impressive as it needs to be. The same reasons for which car makers in the beginning moved from electricity to gasoline are still widely valid including
    - lack of charging infrastructure
    - long charge times
    - limited range
    - battery mass
    - battery operating temperature issues
    - aging of batteries
    These things have gotten better, but still are not really on par with gas-powered cars.

    Also, "new" issues like
    - battery fires
    - water consumption of lithium production
    are arising from the current practice.

    Also, from an ecological point of view, electic cars are horrible. Emissions from production (particularly of the battery) add to the emissions from electricity production (often fossil sources) and the fact, that the batteries make the cars heavier and thus require more engery to move the car compared to fuel. Other things like heating just add to the bill.

    Almost always, using an existing gas powered car has a better footprint than replacing it. And I am not even mentioning that the old car (at least in europe) almost certainly will continue to run in africa for another decode, thus moving its pollution to just another place while adding to the total number of cars on the planet.

    Electric cars are a long term perspective that might very well involve fuel cells. However, currently the math is not favouring them at all.

    Regards,
    Tim Schattkowsky
    --- WinPoint 407.0
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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Tim Schattkowsky on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:46:34
    On 15 Mar 2022, Tim Schattkowsky said the following...
    Actually, most of them run on lithium-ion batteries. Hydrogen cell technologie still is a niche and some keep claiming it already has/will fail. I don't think so, but currently it is insignificant.

    Nevertheless, it is not the technology of 200 years ago.

    Still, while there have been substantial advances in battery technology since the first cars, it is not as impressive as it needs to be. The
    same reasons for which car makers in the beginning moved from
    electricity to gasoline are still widely valid including
    - lack of charging infrastructure

    We have charging stations here (solar, even), and many electric vehicles can
    be charged from a wall outlet. As these vehicles get used more, the infrastructure will grow. People can charge money for it, and that's really about all you'd need for someone to offer services.

    - long charge times

    At 240V, a Prius can charge in a little over 2 hours. That's perfectly
    adequate for a commute vehicle.

    - limited range

    Their range is not all that limited anymore.

    - battery mass

    Compared to what? An engine block?

    - battery operating temperature issues

    This happens in harsh conditions, but not under normal operating conditions. Gasoline engines can also have overheating issues in harsh environments.

    - aging of batteries

    They are generally improving in this regard.

    These things have gotten better, but still are not really on par with gas-powered cars.

    That would depend on the application. Not everyone needs a vehicle that can travel 800+ miles per day (including 1 charge) through the desert. Most
    people don't use their vehicles for anything near that.

    I get the distinct feeling that some people won't be ready to accept electric vehicles until they exceed the performance of gasoline vehicles in every regard. That is not necessary.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 20:26:19
    I get the distinct feeling that some people won't be ready to accept electric
    vehicles until they exceed the performance of gasoline vehicles in every regard. That is not necessary.

    Ahem. Haven't they outperformed already? I mean, every car interested person already know the difference from an ICE car engine installation, weighing in at some 350 kg and with a gazillion moving parts vs. an electric motor at 25 kg with just two moving parts.

    The average service cost of an ICE car, often nearly EUR1k per year, EVs don't need service. Yeah, well, maybe changing tires every other year and some windscreen fluid added once a year.

    The EV owner never again has to stop at a gas station (and watch how much more the oil companies are charging), his car is always fully charged at home over the night -- good bye bloody gas station stops.

    Plus of course, for every supercar, even in the multimillion dollar range, there's now an EV that outperforms it at a fraction of the cost. Welcome to the future, all of y'all F-150 type gas guzzling loving people (what minimal body-part are you compensating for?) to the new era of high performance, inexpensive cars.


    ..

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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 14:43:11
    On 15 Mar 2022, Björn Felten said the following...
    I get the distinct feeling that some people won't be ready to accept electric
    vehicles until they exceed the performance of gasoline vehicles in ev regard. That is not necessary.
    [...]
    Plus of course, for every supercar, even in the multimillion dollar range, there's now an EV that outperforms it at a fraction of the cost. Welcome to the future, all of y'all F-150 type gas guzzling loving
    people (what minimal body-part are you compensating for?) to the new era of high performance, inexpensive cars.

    I, for one, welcome our electric overdrives.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 16:13:34
    I get the distinct feeling that some people won't be ready to accept electric
    vehicles until they exceed the performance of gasoline vehicles in ev regard. That is not necessary.

    Ahem. Haven't they outperformed already? I mean, every car interested person already know the difference from an ICE car engine installation, weighing in at some 350 kg and with a gazillion moving parts vs. an electric motor at 25 kg with just two moving parts.

    Erm...I agree, especially looking at the acceleration of the Tesla Plaid,
    that electric cars certainly perform at least as well as ICE's. But, with regard to weight, you should also consider the 325 kg of batteries that must
    go with that 25 kg electric motor.

    The average service cost of an ICE car, often nearly EUR1k per year, EVs don't need service. Yeah, well, maybe changing tires every other
    year and some windscreen fluid added once a year.

    A little more than just that needs upkeep in an electric, but...yes, certainly cheaper than proper maintenance on a gas car, on any average year. That is...until those batteries wear out...($_$)

    The EV owner never again has to stop at a gas station (and watch how much more the oil companies are charging), his car is always fully
    charged at home over the night -- good bye bloody gas station stops.

    Provided that Mr. Eevee never goes on a 300+ km drive. Be realistic. A
    perfect example is my daily commute. I have to drive 100+ km each way. Unless
    I allow my electrictian, my power company, and my city ordinance officer, to each help themselves to my wallet, I would not be able to keep an EV fully charged. And considering the premium required just to buy the car, I feel
    like gas isn't so expensive by comparison.

    Plus of course, for every supercar, even in the multimillion dollar range, there's now an EV that outperforms it at a fraction of the cost. Welcome to the future, all of y'all F-150 type gas guzzling loving
    people (what minimal body-part are you compensating for?) to the new era of high performance, inexpensive cars.

    Don't stereotype. Not everyone who prefers a gas car drives a gas hog. I drive a Mazda 3 with a SkyAktiv engine and get roughly 6l/100km (about 40 mpg for
    the Americans), for instance. I'm UNDERcompensating. (o_-)

    And again, 'a fraction of the cost' is verifiably false. The cheapest gas car in Canada, currently, is the Chevy Spark, at a bit less than $13k. The
    cheapest all-electric option is the Nissan Leaf at friggin $38k! That's
    almost exactly three times as much. So...the fact is, a gas car, at least in this example, is 1/3 (a fraction) of the cost of an EV.

    I wouldn't know if the price is different when you get into supercars. I
    don't wipe my butt with dollar bills, and I wouldn't waste them on a super(expensive)car, either.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

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    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 16:15:19
    I, for one, welcome our electric overdrives.

    Jeff.

    As long as they're not 'overlords', I suppose I do too! (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to TIM SCHATTKOWSKY on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 16:48:00
    Also, from an ecological point of view, electic cars are horrible. Emissions fr
    m production (particularly of the battery) add to the emissions from electricit
    production (often fossil sources) and the fact, that the batteries make the car
    s heavier and thus require more engery to move the car compared to fuel. Other >hings like heating just add to the bill.

    And then there is the disposal of batteries. That will be another
    ecological nightmare. Yes, it is currently a problem we already have, but
    we are talking about making it worse not better as electric cars require larger/more batteries than gasoline ones do.


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 16:31:00
    - long charge times

    At 240V, a Prius can charge in a little over 2 hours. That's perfectly adequate for a commute vehicle.

    They would be great for a commuter-only vehicle. The original poster (me) mentioned killing tourism, which insinuates longer hauls.

    - battery operating temperature issues

    This happens in harsh conditions, but not under normal operating conditions. Gasoline engines can also have overheating issues in harsh environments.

    If their cooling systems fail, gas engines have overheating issues. If the cooling system is working, they normally do not. I am not aware of any
    similar battery cooling systems.

    I get the distinct feeling that some people won't be ready to accept electric vehicles until they exceed the performance of gasoline vehicles in every regard. That is not necessary.

    They don't have to exceed, but I would like one that can get me across a desert, and other rural areas with limited charging opportunities, without excess worry.

    Forcing us into them *right now*, another concern voiced by the original
    poster (me) is not going to convince most of us that many of these (still) legitimate concerns don't exist.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 16:27:43
    On 15 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    And then there is the disposal of batteries. That will be another ecological nightmare. Yes, it is currently a problem we already have,
    but we are talking about making it worse not better as electric cars require larger/more batteries than gasoline ones do.

    The largest ecological problem with disposing of gasoline-engine batteries is their lead content.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 22:33:17
    regard to weight, you should also consider the 325 kg of batteries that must go with that 25 kg electric motor.

    You are totally right. But then again, you must consider that a combustion engine at the most has a 30% efficiency as opposed to the EV's 95% so the ICE vehicle must carry three times as much energy along.

    A little more than just that needs upkeep in an electric, but...yes, certainly
    cheaper than proper maintenance on a gas car, on any average year. That is...until those batteries wear out...($_$)

    We still don't know how long it'll take for a Tesla to wear out it's battery since there's still not a single Tesla that has even gone below 90% battery capacity, even after a million km. And even after 80%, how does that compare to an ICE car's performance after a million km? The Tesla will still run along, albeit with 20% shorter range, while the ICE car is ready for the scrapyard many years ago -- despite all the thousands of dollars each year just to keep it going.

    Provided that Mr. Eevee never goes on a 300+ km drive. Be realistic. A perfect example is my daily commute. I have to drive 100+ km each way.

    A perfect example of how the USA has managed to scrap the socialist, commie crazy idea about investing in public transportation.

    To a European having to *drive* 100+ km each way is so alien that nobody here, yes nobody, would ever accept such a job.

    I drive 5 km each way to a free parking space and then (free to me as a senior citizen) a bus into the city. I drive 5 km each way to get to the city and from there the train that'll get me to anywhere in the entire Europe I want. And to the airport it's a 30 km bus ride...

    Unless I allow my electrictian, my power company, and my city ordinance officer, to each help themselves to my wallet, I would not be able to
    keep an EV fully charged.

    Totally understandable. Someone told me that the best electrical installation you can get in the USA is a 2x110V <a shitload of amps> supply. Surely that cannot be true? In Sweden, where 60% of the citizens live in a single family home, the standard installation is a 3x380V 25A installation. So we can even keep our EVs fully charged from a household 10A socket -- but of course we prefer a standard 3x380V socket.

    Don't stereotype. Not everyone who prefers a gas car drives a gas hog.

    Well, wasn't the F-150 the best selling vehicle for years?

    I drive
    a Mazda 3 with a SkyAktiv engine and get roughly 6l/100km (about 40 mpg for
    the Americans), for instance. I'm UNDERcompensating. (o_-)

    LOL! Three cheers from Sweden, it really seem you are.

    And again, 'a fraction of the cost' is verifiably false. The cheapest
    gas car
    in Canada, currently, is the Chevy Spark, at a bit less than $13k. The cheapest all-electric option is the Nissan Leaf at friggin $38k! That's almost exactly three times as much. So...the fact is, a gas car, at
    least in this example, is 1/3 (a fraction) of the cost of an EV.

    As long as you only count the cost for the actual purchase, you are totally correct, but start with what that new car of yours is worth the moment you take out on the street. And of course if you are crazy enough to choose a frigging car that combines all the negatives from EV and ICE, a hybrid, you'll not end up with a double negative in the grammatical sense...

    I wouldn't know if the price is different when you get into supercars. I don't wipe my butt with dollar bills, and I wouldn't waste them on a super(expensive)car, either.

    LOL! Yeah. In Sweden you can get a 200 sqm family home for less than EUR100k -- a Tesla model S Plaid costs EUR120k. So I once again totally agree with you, you really must have your priorities here in life twisted if you pay more for a car than for a family home. :)

    --




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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 16:39:34
    On 15 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    At 240V, a Prius can charge in a little over 2 hours. That's perfectly adequate for a commute vehicle.

    They would be great for a commuter-only vehicle. The original poster
    (me) mentioned killing tourism, which insinuates longer hauls.

    That's a different vehicle for a different purpose. Not all vehicles are used for that purpose. Not everyone needs to convert at once, but the more that
    do, the faster the innovation will occur.

    It's not black or white. Perfect is the enemy of good.

    This happens in harsh conditions, but not under normal operating conditi Gasoline engines can also have overheating issues in harsh environments.

    If their cooling systems fail, gas engines have overheating issues. If the cooling system is working, they normally do not. I am not aware of
    any similar battery cooling systems.

    There are environmental conditions that exceed the capabilities of gas engine cooling systems. Some have specialized cooling systems for these
    environments, but many do not, because again there are different vehicles for different purposes.

    One place to look for innovative battery cooling systems is the World Solar Challenge that takes place in Australia every two years. The vehicles do have batteries charged by solar panels and an important consideration in their
    speed strategy is considering how to use what battery power they have weighed against how much sunlight they expect to be available that day. Needless to say, though, they push these vehicles to their limits (it being a race and
    all) and the Australian Outback can have some pretty extreme temperatures.

    I get the distinct feeling that some people won't be ready to accept ele vehicles until they exceed the performance of gasoline vehicles in every regard. That is not necessary.

    They don't have to exceed, but I would like one that can get me across a desert, and other rural areas with limited charging opportunities,
    without excess worry.

    How often do you travel more than 400 miles in a hop?

    Forcing us into them *right now*, another concern voiced by the original poster (me) is not going to convince most of us that many of these
    (still) legitimate concerns don't exist.

    I don't recall anyone being forced into them *right now.* Companies are
    making more and more of them, and eventually we'll all have one, but no one's coming to take your pick-up truck (although, if your gun was in a gun rack in your truck, it would be kind of a twofer, wouldn't it? ;) ).

    Jeff.

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    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 18:00:16
    This happens in harsh conditions, but not under normal operating conditi Gasoline engines can also have overheating issues in harsh environments.

    If their cooling systems fail, gas engines have overheating issues. If the cooling system is working, they normally do not. I am not aware of
    any similar battery cooling systems.

    You possibly haven't done enough research, then. Certainly, an overheated (or frozen) battery will not perform as desired. And a battery fire is, in some ways, more dangerous than a gas fire. There is a reason why Tesla battery
    packs have built-in cooling (or rather temperature-control, they keep the batteries warm, too) systems.

    I get the distinct feeling that some people won't be ready to accept ele vehicles until they exceed the performance of gasoline vehicles in every regard. That is not necessary.

    They don't have to exceed, but I would like one that can get me across a desert, and other rural areas with limited charging opportunities,
    without excess worry.

    That is one of my sticking points as well; range anxiety isn't a fun emotion. As far as raw performance, though, some EV's aready exceed equivalent gas cars. Anyone who doubts this should look at the performance of the Tesla Plaid on
    the dragstrip.

    Forcing us into them *right now*, another concern voiced by the original poster (me) is not going to convince most of us that many of these
    (still) legitimate concerns don't exist.

    And that's a very logical point. Having a certain option forced upon you is going to make you more likely to question that option. However, I really
    don't think anyone is being *forced* into switching to EVs. Rather, many different factors are making gas-powered cars less and less attractive. Not quite the same, but possibly the same result...

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

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  • From Tim Schattkowsky@2:310/31.6 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 19:36:56
    //Hello Jeff,//

    on *15.03.22* at *17:46:34* You wrote in Area *POLITICS*
    to *Tim Schattkowsky* about *"Re: Re^2: Do your part!"*.

    Nevertheless, it is not the technology of 200 years ago.

    For sure not. It is on the edge of becoming useful.

    Still, while there have been substantial advances in battery technology
    since the first cars, it is not as impressive as it needs to be. The
    same reasons for which car makers in the beginning moved from
    electricity to gasoline are still widely valid including
    - lack of charging infrastructure

    We have charging stations here (solar, even), and many electric vehicles can be charged from a wall outlet. As these vehicles get used more, the infrastructure will grow. People can charge money for it, and that's really about all you'd need for someone to offer services.

    Think of the scale necessary to support a traffic system with only electric cars. Think of the power grid. Think of urban areas, where already parking is an issue. And now think how many people today have trouble getting acceptably internet connections ... be it in the US or in Germany. Now imagine how much more complicated and expensive the charging infratstucture is compared to dropping an internet cable.

    - long charge times

    At 240V, a Prius can charge in a little over 2 hours. That's perfectly adequate for a commute vehicle.

    It is. But my car can be refueled in 2 minutes and drive 500 miles. So 2 hours at home is far from perfect for other application scenarious.

    - limited range
    Their range is not all that limited anymore.

    True, but still more limited and particularly also by the charging time, as gas stops with a gas car are a non-issue while long trips with e-cars get significantly longer, even in the best case. Not to mention all the currently involved hassle and the lack of flexibility.

    - battery mass
    Compared to what? An engine block?

    Total system weight is much higher for electric cars with comparable ranges.

    - battery operating temperature issues

    This happens in harsh conditions, but not under normal operating conditions. Gasoline engines can also have overheating issues in harsh environments.

    Not everybody lives in california. That "harsh" is quite normal for most places on earth. Battery temperature is a big and complex issue, not only for very deep temperatures. It also plays plays a significant role at "normal" temperatures, where the battery has to be "conditioned" for charging.

    - aging of batteries
    They are generally improving in this regard.

    Agree. Still, to compare apples to apples, you currently have to consider also the footprint of a battery replacement as cars tend to survive their batteries. So this adds even more to the environmental footprint of an electric car. Thus, the overall real world footprint of an electric car today is in fact higher than that of a regular car. I do believe this will change, but currently is is pure fiction to consider these cars "green".

    These things have gotten better, but still are not really on par with
    gas-powered cars.
    That would depend on the application. Not everyone needs a vehicle that can travel 800+ miles per day (including 1 charge) through the desert. Most people don't use their vehicles for anything near that.

    True, but in reality the application scenarios where electic cars are problemetic are much more everday life than what you suggest. Real world range of an electric car in colder countries is often less than 200km. That is an issue.

    I get the distinct feeling that some people won't be ready to accept electric vehicles until they exceed the performance of gasoline vehicles in every regard. That is not necessary.

    Fully agree. But it is necessary to understand and address the existing limitations. There still are a lot, some of them hard to address. In fact that is why I think, that liquid hydrogen may in the end come to the rescue, as its many drawbacks (including the currently low energy efficiency) may be outweighted by the benefits in handling. Eventually, the ability to create large amounts of really green electricity at small cost is key to overcomning this. Unfurtunately, unless fusion works out (after all these years), this will be difficult to achieve.

    Regards,
    Tim

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 18:44:26
    The largest ecological problem with disposing of gasoline-engine
    batteries is their lead content.

    To be clear, do you suppose that lithium from EV batteries is less of a problem? I would think this isn't true, especially given how many there are
    in a single car. Otherwise, why do each of my lithium packs have that 'do not throw in trash' icon?

    However, that is not the only thing that gets disposed of in a gas car. Lots
    of used oil comes to mind instantly...

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 18:04:51
    On 15 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    The largest ecological problem with disposing of gasoline-engine batteries is their lead content.

    To be clear, do you suppose that lithium from EV batteries is less of a problem? I would think this isn't true, especially given how many there are in a single car. Otherwise, why do each of my lithium packs have
    that 'do not throw in trash' icon?

    Lithium batteries and lead batteries both require specialized recycling procedures and should not be thrown into the trash.

    However, that is not the only thing that gets disposed of in a gas car. Lots of used oil comes to mind instantly...

    True, or boats. There were a few episodes of Mythbusters where they submerged boats into SF Bay (the "can you lift a sunken boat by filling it with
    ping-pong balls" myth comes to mind). They did mention that they had to thoroughly clean the boat before submerging it, but I'm not entirely sure
    what all that entailed.

    Jeff.

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 19:18:41
    regard to weight, you should also consider the 325 kg of batteries th must go with that 25 kg electric motor.

    You are totally right. But then again, you must consider that a combustion engine at the most has a 30% efficiency as opposed to the
    EV's 95% so the ICE vehicle must carry three times as much energy along.

    I'm sorry, sir, but I must challenge that efficiency argument. If you explore the entire fuel chain on both sides, you may find the difference to be much smaller. I can provide you with a YT video of someone who discusses exactly this, in detail, if you're interested...

    A little more than just that needs upkeep in an electric, but...yes, certainly
    cheaper than proper maintenance on a gas car, on any average year. Th is...until those batteries wear out...($_$)

    We still don't know how long it'll take for a Tesla to wear out it's battery since there's still not a single Tesla that has even gone below 90% battery capacity, even after a million km. And even after 80%, how does that compare to an ICE car's performance after a million km? The Tesla will still run along, albeit with 20% shorter range, while the ICE car is ready for the scrapyard many years ago -- despite all the
    thousands of dollars each year just to keep it going.

    Erm, there's been quite a few Tesla's that have been sold, or scrapped,
    because the batteries are no longer any good, at least in Canada. But, we
    *are* famous for our...extreme...winters. And trust me, the price for a new Tesla(TM) battery pack would make even Bill Gates' eyes water...

    Provided that Mr. Eevee never goes on a 300+ km drive. Be realistic. perfect example is my daily commute. I have to drive 100+ km each way

    A perfect example of how the USA has managed to scrap the socialist, commie crazy idea about investing in public transportation.

    Please don't lump me in with my noisy neighbours, thanks! (o_-)

    To a European having to *drive* 100+ km each way is so alien that nobody here, yes nobody, would ever accept such a job.

    To a Canuck, it's pretty normal. We've only got one or two major cities in
    any province, and that's where the jobs are! Unless you're willing to pick beans or flip burgers for minimum wage and no medical, you need to commute.

    I drive 5 km each way to a free parking space and then (free to me as
    a senior citizen) a bus into the city. I drive 5 km each way to get to
    the city and from there the train that'll get me to anywhere in the
    entire Europe I want. And to the airport it's a 30 km bus ride...

    Well, I do similar, I suppose. I park my car after my commute, and use
    public transit in-city. I would also remind you that Canada is the second largest country in the world, in square km. A coast-to-coast train ride
    is well over 5000 km, and takes nearly a week!

    Unless I allow my electrictian, my power company, and my city ordinan officer, to each help themselves to my wallet, I would not be able to keep an EV fully charged.

    Totally understandable. Someone told me that the best electrical installation you can get in the USA is a 2x110V <a shitload of amps> supply. Surely that cannot be true? In Sweden, where 60% of the citizens live in a single family home, the standard installation is a 3x380V 25A installation. So we can even keep our EVs fully charged from a household 10A socket -- but of course we prefer a standard 3x380V socket.

    I can't speak with certainty about the US, but that is true here, and sounds like the case for them, too. Our outlets are either 110 or 220 volts, and the 220 ones are used basically only for driers and ovens. These circuits are typically capped at 15A/30A each. It is possible to use a standard 110V circuit to 'charge' an EV, but it would take an excrutiatingly long time. A 220V circuit, naturally, would do this significantly faster. But, for the same 'quick charge' capability that you're probably used to, I would have to tie
    two 30A 220V circuits together, which I am not qualified, and therefore not allowed, to do by myself.

    Again, I can't be certain about how it's done in the US, but I would assume it's about the same...

    Don't stereotype. Not everyone who prefers a gas car drives a gas hog

    Well, wasn't the F-150 the best selling vehicle for years?

    Not in Canada! I'm not a Yankee, dang it! Stop that! \(@_@)/

    I drive
    a Mazda 3 with a SkyAktiv engine and get roughly 6l/100km (about 40 m for
    the Americans), for instance. I'm UNDERcompensating. (o_-)

    LOL! Three cheers from Sweden, it really seem you are.

    Hey, ask any one of an appropriately long list of ex-lovers. (^_^)

    As long as you only count the cost for the actual purchase, you are totally correct, but start with what that new car of yours is worth the moment you take out on the street. And of course if you are crazy enough to choose a frigging car that combines all the negatives from EV and
    ICE, a hybrid, you'll not end up with a double negative in the
    grammatical sense...

    To be clear, I was only using 'cheapest new' as an example. However, that spills over into the used market, too. Typically, an EV in either market will be more expensive than an equivalent ICEV. Also, the version of the Leaf I was pricing was the full-electric one, not hybrid. Sorry for not being clear on that.

    I wouldn't know if the price is different when you get into supercars don't wipe my butt with dollar bills, and I wouldn't waste them on a super(expensive)car, either.

    LOL! Yeah. In Sweden you can get a 200 sqm family home for less than EUR100k -- a Tesla model S Plaid costs EUR120k. So I once again totally agree with you, you really must have your priorities here in life
    twisted if you pay more for a car than for a family home. :)

    Shoot, I might just move to Sweden! The average price of a two-bedroom home (with zero property space, or 'yard') in my area is getting a little too close to the million-dollar mark...And, I've always been a fan of that chef from
    the Muppet Show! (o_-)

    One last thing...I think you'll have to invite me to R20_ADMIN, if you really want me to be there...My hub won't allow me to join it from this end...

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 19:29:45
    To be clear, do you suppose that lithium from EV batteries is less of problem? I would think this isn't true, especially given how many the are in a single car. Otherwise, why do each of my lithium packs have that 'do not throw in trash' icon?

    Lithium batteries and lead batteries both require specialized recycling procedures and should not be thrown into the trash.

    Agreed. And both have the same icon. In fact, I believe *all* batteries have it...

    However, that is not the only thing that gets disposed of in a gas ca Lots of used oil comes to mind instantly...

    True, or boats. There were a few episodes of Mythbusters where they submerged boats into SF Bay (the "can you lift a sunken boat by filling
    it with ping-pong balls" myth comes to mind). They did mention that they had to thoroughly clean the boat before submerging it, but I'm not entirely sure what all that entailed.

    I am very familiar with that episode. I typically watch Mythbusters reruns on my bedroom TV when doing my pre-sleep ritual...They also had to remove the engine, drivetrain, fuel tank, and brake system from the car(s) they used in the episodes about escaping while underwater. But they were doing that in a swimming pool.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Tim Schattkowsky@2:310/31.6 to Mike Powell on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 01:09:01
    //Hello Mike,//

    on *15.03.22* at *20:48:00* You wrote in Area *POLITICS*
    to *TIM SCHATTKOWSKY* about *"Re^2: Do your part!"*.

    And then there is the disposal of batteries. That will be another ecological nightmare. Yes, it is currently a problem we already have,
    but we are talking about making it worse not better as electric cars require larger/more batteries than gasoline ones do.

    True.

    Regards,
    Tim

    --- WinPoint 407.0
    * Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:310/31.6)
  • From Tim Schattkowsky@2:310/31.6 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 01:36:56
    //Hello Bjoern,//

    on *15.03.22* at *21:33:17* You wrote in Area *POLITICS*
    to *Shaun Buzza* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    To a European having to drive 100+ km each way is so alien that nobody here, yes nobody, would ever accept such a job.

    At least for germany this is not correct. While in the (few) big cities using public transportation is often the only practical option, in the countryside (and there is a lot of that) people often have very long distances to drive to get to work. Many people in my family as well as half of my current collegues drive 100+ km (one way) for work everyday. I once had a job where I had to drive 250km (one way) to work, but not every day. It very much depends on where you live and what you do. For some states in germany, already the average (!) distance is 30km.

    I drive 5 km each way to a free parking space and then (free to me as
    a senior citizen) a bus into the city. I drive 5 km each way to get to
    the city and from there the train that'll get me to anywhere in the
    entire Europe I want. And to the airport it's a 30 km bus ride...

    Your local infrastructure might differ from the rest of Europe. In germany, public transportation over longer distances is simply unaffordable for some people. Individual rides of a few hundred km can easily cost you a few hundred € one waya. Thus, essentially everybody who needs a long distance train connection to get to work usually ends up buying a "BahnCard 100" ticket that gives you free rides on the entire network (at least of the main provider) ... for (currently) 4144€ a year. Still much cheaper then individual rides. However, using a car for these people can be is cheaper by an order of magnitude and becomes even more cheaper when sharing the car with some collegues, which is a common practice in those scenarios.

    Regards,
    Tim

    --- WinPoint 407.0
    * Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:310/31.6)
  • From Tim Schattkowsky@2:310/31.6 to Shaun Buzza on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 01:45:43
    //Hello Shaun,//

    on *15.03.22* at *23:18:41* You wrote in Area *POLITICS*
    to *Bjoern Felten* about *"Re: The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    Totally understandable. Someone told me that the best electrical
    installation you can get in the USA is a 2x110V <a shitload of amps>
    supply. Surely that cannot be true? In Sweden, where 60% of the citizens
    live in a single family home, the standard installation is a 3x380V 25A
    installation. So we can even keep our EVs fully charged from a household
    10A socket -- but of course we prefer a standard 3x380V socket.

    I can't speak with certainty about the US, but that is true here, and sounds like the case for them, too. Our outlets are either 110 or 220 volts, and the 220 ones are used basically only for driers and ovens. These circuits are typically capped at 15A/30A each. It is possible to
    use a standard 110V circuit to 'charge' an EV, but it would take an excrutiatingly long time. A 220V circuit, naturally, would do this significantly faster. But, for the same 'quick charge' capability that you're probably used to, I would have to tie two 30A 220V circuits together, which I am not qualified, and therefore not allowed, to do by myself.

    It is important not to mix the house connection with the individual sockets. In Germany, 3 phases 380V is IMHO also the standard connection, but the normal socket provides 230V (used to be 220V) at a total of 3600W. Multiple phases are AFAIK usually only used for cooking/oven and water heaters. Still, you can have 3 phase 380V outlets (I have some in my workshop), but it is rather unusual. I have no idea, how US homes are connected.

    Regards,
    Tim

    --- WinPoint 407.0
    * Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:310/31.6)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Tim Schattkowsky on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 22:40:12
    I can't speak with certainty about the US, but that is true here, and sounds like the case for them, too. Our outlets are either 110 or 220 volts, and the 220 ones are used basically only for driers and ovens. These circuits are typically capped at 15A/30A each. It is possible t use a standard 110V circuit to 'charge' an EV, but it would take an excrutiatingly long time. A 220V circuit, naturally, would do this significantly faster. But, for the same 'quick charge' capability tha you're probably used to, I would have to tie two 30A 220V circuits together, which I am not qualified, and therefore not allowed, to do myself.

    It is important not to mix the house connection with the individual sockets. In
    Germany, 3 phases 380V is IMHO also the standard connection, but the normal socket provides 230V (used to be 220V) at a total of 3600W. Multiple phases are

    AFAIK usually only used for cooking/oven and water heaters. Still, you
    can have
    3 phase 380V outlets (I have some in my workshop), but it is rather unusual. I have no idea, how US homes are connected.

    Yes, the electrical system is very different here, compared to Europe, or
    Great Britian, or Asia. I know we Canadians have adopted basically the same system as our neighbour, and that was to make it easier to have qualified electricians for both countries.

    However, there is no 'multi-phase' socket in any home here, as you think of them. Yes, our 220v sockets are called 'two-phase', but that's not
    technically true. There is NOT two separate sine waves on an oscilliscope
    when connected to this socket. In fact, there is a single, 60Hz sine wave,
    with twice the amplitude of a 110v socket.

    There are some commercial settings where three-phase power is necessary. And they would have three separate sine waves (or at least three separate peaks, depending on the 'scope) if you were to check it.

    When I said 'tying two 30A circuits together', that's basically what I meant. Normally, it's a pair of 15A connections, for a total of 30A. And all that needs to be done to 'upgrade' it *illegally* is switch the breakers. Don't ask me how I know this, but I can confirm it as fact. (o_-)

    To do it safely, though, you would have to install much bigger wiring for
    that circuit among other equally important things. Which means a licensed electrician, a permit for the renovation, a guy to fix the wall if you don't want to do it yourself, and (in the case of an EV) a hefty price tag for their half of the wiring...

    And then there's the not insignificant rise in the electricity
    bill...granted, it's probably not the same as I would pay in fuel for the
    same distance traveled, but it's also not 'free'. I'm having enough trouble keeping my bills paid as it is, thank you very much! \(@_@)/

    Anyway, there's a short dive into the difference between our wiring and
    yours. If you're interested in knowing more, I can send you some YT videos
    that explain it a lot better than I can.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 22:07:53
    On 15 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    However, that is not the only thing that gets disposed of in a g Lots of used oil comes to mind instantly...

    True, or boats. There were a few episodes of Mythbusters where they submerged boats into SF Bay (the "can you lift a sunken boat by filli it with ping-pong balls" myth comes to mind). They did mention that t had to thoroughly clean the boat before submerging it, but I'm not entirely sure what all that entailed.

    I am very familiar with that episode. I typically watch Mythbusters
    reruns on my bedroom TV when doing my pre-sleep ritual...They also had
    to remove the engine, drivetrain, fuel tank, and brake system from the car(s) they used in the episodes about escaping while underwater. But
    they were doing that in a swimming pool.

    Those were good ones, too. Every few years I binge-watch Mythbusters, and remind myself of the scientific method at work.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to BjöRn Felten on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 01:45:04
    On 03-15-22 20:26, Björn Felten <=-
    spoke to Jeff Thiele about The myth about EVs vs. IC <=-

    Plus of course, for every supercar, even in the multimillion dollar
    range, there's now an EV that outperforms it at a fraction of the
    cost. Welcome to the future, all of y'all F-150 type gas
    guzzling loving people (what minimal body-part are you
    compensating for?) to the new era of high performance,
    inexpensive cars.

    There is an F-150 all electric truck, with a phenomenal towing power.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 01:46:45, 16 Mar 2022
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 03:46:29
    on *15.03.22* at *19:26:19* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Jeff Thiele* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    Ahem. Haven't they outperformed already? I mean, every car interested person already know the difference from an ICE car engine installation, weighing in at some 350 kg and with a gazillion moving parts vs. an electric motor at 25 kg with just two moving parts.

    You are ignoring the weight of the battery.


    The EV owner never again has to stop at a gas station (and watch how much more the oil companies are charging), his car is always fully
    charged at home over the night -- good bye bloody gas station stops.

    You are assuming that everyone owns a house with a garage, and that the manufacturer of the car hasn't told them to park it outside, away from all structures because it may burst into flames.

    You are also assuming that the regional government hasn't told people to not charge their EV cars because the electric grid won't handle it, like has happened in California a few times.

    The simple fact that a short trip to another state will require you to stop for a multi-hour charge each direction is a deal breaker, regardless of anything else.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 15:20:05
    weighing in at some 350 kg and with a gazillion moving parts vs. an
    electric motor at 25 kg with just two moving parts.

    You are ignoring the weight of the battery.

    Why do you assume that? Do you usually compare the weight of all the various parts of a car? However, taking all the various parts in consideration -- making a true apple-to-apple compare -- an EV car usually weigh less than half of that of an obese USAian more, than an ICE car with the same performance.

    You are assuming that everyone owns a house with a garage, and that the

    And you seem to assume that everyone who does not, have a gas station at home? The charging at home, at the superstore or at work is just the icing on the cake. Like gas stations, there's now charging stations all over the world.

    manufacturer of the car hasn't told them to park it outside, away from
    all structures because it may burst into flames.

    Please don't use GM's fiasco for stereotyping all EV cars. And how about ICE cars, do they never burst into flames? You *do* know what the C in ICE stands for?

    You are also assuming that the regional government hasn't told people to not charge their EV cars because the electric grid won't handle it, like has happened in California a few times.

    I don't know everything about what corrupt US politicians are doing ATM, but I had the impression that California is ramping up its renewable electricity generation really impressively. As opposed to some states that are doing it's best to ramp it down (Florida springs to mind). What regional governments are you talking about?

    The simple fact that a short trip to another state will require you to stop for a multi-hour charge each direction is a deal breaker,
    regardless of anything else.

    You surely seem to live in the past. A Tesla e.g. takes less time to top up the "tank" than it takes for you to take a smoke, a piss, a burger or simply stretch your legs. I hope you *do* take regular breaks; else you're an unsafe driver and a fatal danger to the drivers around you.





    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 16:47:00
    The largest ecological problem with disposing of gasoline-engine batteries is their lead content.

    While lithium is good for the environment?


    * SLMR 2.1a * Now... where did I park that hard disk?
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 16:56:00
    They don't have to exceed, but I would like one that can get me across a desert, and other rural areas with limited charging opportunities, without excess worry.

    How often do you travel more than 400 miles in a hop?

    Often enough that I don't want to buy a weenie car to do it in. It does
    not have to have muscle, but I don't want to be worried about whether or
    not it will get me there.

    Forcing us into them *right now*, another concern voiced by the original poster (me) is not going to convince most of us that many of these (still) legitimate concerns don't exist.

    I don't recall anyone being forced into them *right now.* Companies are making more and more of them, and eventually we'll all have one, but no one's coming to take your pick-up truck (although, if your gun was in a gun rack in your truck, it would be kind of a twofer, wouldn't it? ;) ).

    The original supposition was that the government is not doing much about
    gas prices because they are pushing an agenda. *IF* that supposition is
    true, then they are screwing up.

    My daily/long-trip driver is not a pick-up. My assumption is that we got
    to talking pick-ups because you seem to be interested in them.


    * SLMR 2.1a * It was all so different before everything changed.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to SHAUN BUZZA on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 17:32:00
    They don't have to exceed, but I would like one that can get me across a desert, and other rural areas with limited charging opportunities, without excess worry.

    That is one of my sticking points as well; range anxiety isn't a fun emotion. As far as raw performance, though, some EV's aready exceed equivalent gas cars
    Anyone who doubts this should look at the performance of the Tesla Plaid on the dragstrip.

    During the earlier part of the discussion, "affordable" was thrown out
    there. I have not looked lately, but Teslas tend to be out of the range I would call "affordable."

    Since many companies have done away with cars that are not
    sports/performance, SUVs, or highly-marked-up pick-up trucks, there are a
    lot of gas models that I would no longer call "affordable."

    Forcing us into them *right now*, another concern voiced by the original poster (me) is not going to convince most of us that many of these (still) legitimate concerns don't exist.

    And that's a very logical point. Having a certain option forced upon you is going to make you more likely to question that option. However, I really don't think anyone is being *forced* into switching to EVs. Rather, many different factors are making gas-powered cars less and less attractive. Not quite the same, but possibly the same result...

    I suspect our current US government is not doing much about the sudden rise
    in gas prices to intentionally make gas-powered things less attractive.

    Back in 2017 or so, several Democrat congresspeople (like Chuck Shumer)
    wrote an open letter to Trump about how he'd better do something about gas prices. Back then, the average was less than $3. Now that it has soared
    above that, I don't see them pestering Biden about it at all. So why is
    that?


    * SLMR 2.1a * A father is a banker provided by nature.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to TIM SCHATTKOWSKY on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 17:28:00
    It is important not to mix the house connection with the individual sockets. I
    Germany, 3 phases 380V is IMHO also the standard connection, but the normal so
    et provides 230V (used to be 220V) at a total of 3600W. Multiple phases are AF
    K usually only used for cooking/oven and water heaters. Still, you can have 3 ase 380V outlets (I have some in my workshop), but it is rather unusual. I hav
    no idea, how US homes are connected.

    I don't know the exact details, but the normal wall outlets, and the ones
    you plug your clothes dryer or oven into are different, both in voltage and
    the type of plugs that can be plugged into them.

    In my US home anyway, it would be impossible to plug a normal appliance
    into a higher-voltage outlet and vice-versa, even by force. They won't fit.


    * SLMR 2.1a * All of the stars are to be found only up in the sky.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 16:56:11
    On 16 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    The largest ecological problem with disposing of gasoline-engine batteri their lead content.

    While lithium is good for the environment?

    Lithium is not considered a hazardous material, while lead is.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 17:04:04
    On 16 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Forcing us into them *right now*, another concern voiced by the ori poster (me) is not going to convince most of us that many of these (still) legitimate concerns don't exist.

    I don't recall anyone being forced into them *right now.* Companies are making more and more of them, and eventually we'll all have one, but no coming to take your pick-up truck (although, if your gun was in a gun ra your truck, it would be kind of a twofer, wouldn't it? ;) ).

    The original supposition was that the government is not doing much about gas prices because they are pushing an agenda. *IF* that supposition is true, then they are screwing up.

    The free-market enthusiasts are suddenly begging a Democrat president to live up to their generalizations about liberals and interfere in the free market. It's quite a conundrum.

    My daily/long-trip driver is not a pick-up. My assumption is that we got to talking pick-ups because you seem to be interested in them.

    Nor mine. I use the pick-up for hauling things and for towing our pop-up camper, almost exclusively in-state. Given its age and mileage, I honestly wouldn't even trust it to make a 400-mile-both-ways trip without needing some kind of repair.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 04:18:02
    on *16.03.22* at *14:20:05* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.


    You are assuming that everyone owns a house with a garage, and that the

    And you seem to assume that everyone who does not, have a gas station at home? The charging at home, at the superstore or at work is just the icing on the cake. Like gas stations, there's now charging stations all over the world.

    Perhaps, but your argument FOR EV cars was that you could recharge them overnight and thus wouldn't be disadvantaged by and hours-long charge during the day.

    I don't have a charging station, and I don't know of anyone who has one at their work. The closest charging station to me is about 15-20 miles away. Hardly what I would call convenient.




    manufacturer of the car hasn't told them to park it outside, away from
    all structures because it may burst into flames.

    Please don't use GM's fiasco for stereotyping all EV cars. And how about ICE cars, do they never burst into flames? You do know what the C
    in ICE stands for?

    I've rarely heard of a gas-powered car spontaneously combusting in the middle of the night. About 30 years ago, Toyota vans tended to bust into flames while you were driving them.


    The simple fact that a short trip to another state will require you to
    stop for a multi-hour charge each direction is a deal breaker,
    regardless of anything else.

    You surely seem to live in the past. A Tesla e.g. takes less time to top up the "tank" than it takes for you to take a smoke, a piss, a burger or simply stretch your legs. I hope you do take regular breaks; else you're an unsafe driver and a fatal danger to the drivers around you.

    So, now the need to regularly stop for lengthy recharges is a SAFETY FEATURE?


    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 17, 2022 04:21:46
    on *16.03.22* at *20:56:00* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *JEFF THIELE* about *"Re: Re^2: Do your part!"*.


    How often do you travel more than 400 miles in a hop?

    Often enough that I don't want to buy a weenie car to do it in. It does not have to have muscle, but I don't want to be worried about whether or not it will get me there.

    And it's not like if you get stranded in the mountains that you can flag someone down for a can of electricity.



    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Thursday, March 17, 2022 12:14:04
    or simply stretch your legs. I hope you do take regular breaks; else
    you're an unsafe driver and a fatal danger to the drivers around you.

    So, now the need to regularly stop for lengthy recharges is a SAFETY FEATURE?

    If you regard 15 minutes as lengthy, yes, I certainly do. Don't you? If that is not the general practise in the USA, maybe it is one of the many reasons that Tesla cars drive ten times longer between accidents, according to NHTSA:

    https://www.nhtsa.gov/



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Ron L.@1:120/616 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 17, 2022 09:16:23
    Mike Powell wrote to JEFF THIELE <=-

    While lithium is good for the environment?

    Hmmm... You can get some lithium metal from United Nuclear.

    "Ultra pure quantities of the element Lithium (atomic number 3), sealed under Argon gas. Ideal for those conducting experiments/producing alloys with pure Lithium metal, battery research, etc. Lithium is a very soft metal that can easily be cut with a knife. It reacts violently with water, liberating explosive Hydrogen gas. It is a flammable metal and can cause severe burns if it comes in contact with the skin. Like all alkali metals, Lithium should only be handled by those familiar with its properties. Lithium foil rool & reel is shipped in a sealed bag under an Argon atmosphere."

    Not really something I'd like laying around.

    But remember that Lefties can never see past their Narrative and can never understand the consequences of their decisions.


    ... If it works, you must have done something wrong.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/09/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (1:120/616)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 10:14:39
    You are ignoring the weight of the battery.

    Why do you assume that? Do you usually compare the weight of all the various parts of a car?

    Um...when discussing the total weight of the car? Yes! (o_O)

    However, taking all the various parts in consideration
    -- making a true apple-to-apple compare -- an EV car usually weigh less than half of that of an obese USAian more, than an ICE car with the same performance.

    Can you back that statement up with researchable numbers? Having personally driven both types, I don't think the weight difference is as big as you're suggesting. I mean, without the batteries, sure. But again, without the batteries, that EV isn't going *anywhere*...

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 10:35:38
    You are assuming that everyone owns a house with a garage, and that t

    And you seem to assume that everyone who does not, have a gas station at home? The charging at home, at the superstore or at work is just the icing on the cake. Like gas stations, there's now charging stations all over the world.

    No, sir. *Not* like gas stations! (o_O)

    My town has (I think) six gas stations, and doesn't have a single dedicated charging station. There are some single or double chargers in a few parking lots, but these are not the same as the electric equivalent of a gas station.

    manufacturer of the car hasn't told them to park it outside, away fro all structures because it may burst into flames.

    Please don't use GM's fiasco for stereotyping all EV cars. And how about ICE cars, do they never burst into flames? You *do* know what the C in ICE stands for?

    GM isn't the only manufacturer that has had this problem, and you know it. Putting out a gas fire is *far* easier than putting out a lithium fire, as well.

    I get that you're a big fan of the switch to EVs. And that's fine! Nothing wrong with it at all. If it were possible, I'd probably be driving one,
    too. But, don't overinflate the advantages while skimming over the faults. Please be realistic about both.

    You are also assuming that the regional government hasn't told people not charge their EV cars because the electric grid won't handle it, l has happened in California a few times.

    I don't know everything about what corrupt US politicians are doing

    Come on, Bjorn. Who's stereotyping now?

    I had the impression that California is ramping up its renewable electricity generation really impressively. As opposed to some states
    that are doing it's best to ramp it down (Florida springs to mind). What regional governments are you talking about?

    Just because a state is working to update or upgrade its power grid does not mean that every town in it has enough power to go around. The work takes a
    long time, and the connections to each town are probably not high on the priority list. I'm a Canuck, and have no idea how things are done in California, but...neither do you...

    The simple fact that a short trip to another state will require you t stop for a multi-hour charge each direction is a deal breaker, regardless of anything else.

    You surely seem to live in the past. A Tesla e.g. takes less time to top up the "tank" than it takes for you to take a smoke, a piss, a
    burger or simply stretch your legs. I hope you *do* take regular breaks; else you're an unsafe driver and a fatal danger to the drivers around
    you.

    Okay, no. I'm calling 'bull feces' on that one. I mean, 'topping up' is relative, so maybe it really wouldn't take longer than a smoke break. BUT: for the same distance travelled, it is far faster to 'top up' a fuel tank than a battery.

    For instance, a completely dead Tesla would take (at least one) hours to recharge, even at a quick-charge station, while any gas car can go from completely empty to completely full in the time it takes to smoke a cigarette (or doobie). Please do NOT smoke while filling up! Or do, but make sure
    nobody but you is present. Removing stupid from the gene pool is
    *everybody's* responsibility! (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 17, 2022 10:50:44
    That is one of my sticking points as well; range anxiety isn't a fun emo As far as raw performance, though, some EV's aready exceed equivalent ga
    cars
    Anyone who doubts this should look at the performance of the Tesla Plaid the dragstrip.

    During the earlier part of the discussion, "affordable" was thrown out there. I have not looked lately, but Teslas tend to be out of the range
    I would call "affordable."

    Moreso than an F-150!

    Since many companies have done away with cars that are not sports/performance, SUVs, or highly-marked-up pick-up trucks, there are a lot of gas models that I would no longer call "affordable."

    Okay, never mind the F-150 then... (o_O)

    I agree. Tesla especially, but *all* EVs are more expensive at the show-room than their gas equivalents. I did a comparison on the cheapest new gas vs EV car in Canada, earlier. The Chevy Spark costs nearly a third of a Nissan
    Leaf, at least at MSRP without any tax breaks or discounts.

    And that's a very logical point. Having a certain option forced upon you going to make you more likely to question that option. However, I really don't think anyone is being *forced* into switching to EVs. Rather, many different factors are making gas-powered cars less and less attractive. quite the same, but possibly the same result...

    I suspect our current US government is not doing much about the sudden rise in gas prices to intentionally make gas-powered things less attractive.

    "Don't attribute to malice what stupidity can explain" -Unknown

    In this case, I would think it's more about greed, rather than a push toward EVs. But, I'm not in the US government, nor even in the US. So, I definitely don't know what they're thinking. And, unlike some of our European friends, I am unwilling to make an @$$ of myself by making exaggerated assumptions about the US and its politics/politicians. (^_^)

    Back in 2017 or so, several Democrat congresspeople (like Chuck Shumer) wrote an open letter to Trump about how he'd better do something about
    gas prices. Back then, the average was less than $3. Now that it has soared above that, I don't see them pestering Biden about it at all. So why is that?

    Things that make you go 'hmm...' (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Thursday, March 17, 2022 15:54:57
    Um...when discussing the total weight of the car? Yes! (o_O)

    LOL! Fair enough, but... Never mind. Personally I haven't paid much attention to the weight per se, but more power to weigh ratio when I decided what car I bought. But then again, I live just a few hundred clicks away from the Königsegg factory that made the One:1 car (One hp per kg). :)

    Can you back that statement up with researchable numbers?

    Do you expect me to do your homework? Naughty!

    This guy from Wales gives a pretty good explanation:

    https://youtu.be/opF1si__APs

    suggesting. I mean, without the batteries, sure. But again, without the batteries, that EV isn't going *anywhere*...

    I suggest that it goes exactly as long as an ICE without a petrol tank. No? :)



    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 17, 2022 11:06:31
    I don't know the exact details, but the normal wall outlets, and the ones you plug your clothes dryer or oven into are different, both in voltage and the type of plugs that can be plugged into them.

    In my US home anyway, it would be impossible to plug a normal appliance into a higher-voltage outlet and vice-versa, even by force. They won't fit.

    Yes, the same in Canada. The sockets are completely different, and for the exact reason that it would be kinda destructive to plug a 110v device into a 220v socket...I believe the same is true in other parts of the world that use differing power levels or phase counts in the same house (as mentioned, 220v both is and is not 'two-phase'). Any of our European/Asian/Oceanic friends are welcome to correct me on that.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Thursday, March 17, 2022 10:06:34
    On 17 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    I suspect our current US government is not doing much about the sudde rise in gas prices to intentionally make gas-powered things less attractive.
    In this case, I would think it's more about greed, rather than a push toward EVs. But, I'm not in the US government, nor even in the US. So, I definitely don't know what they're thinking. And, unlike some of our European friends, I am unwilling to make an @$$ of myself by making exaggerated assumptions about the US and its politics/politicians. (^_^)

    I would agree. Greed, plus free-market factors and (now) the heavy sanctions
    on Russia.

    Back in 2017 or so, several Democrat congresspeople (like Chuck Shume wrote an open letter to Trump about how he'd better do something abou gas prices. Back then, the average was less than $3. Now that it ha soared above that, I don't see them pestering Biden about it at all. why is that?

    Things that make you go 'hmm...' (o_-)

    If the US Government wanted to raise gas prices in order to encourage EV use, they wouldn't conspire with oil & gas companies to engineer their own obsolescence.

    No, if the government wanted to raise gas prices (for any reason, not just EV encouragement), they'd increase the gas tax.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Thursday, March 17, 2022 11:11:11
    The largest ecological problem with disposing of gasoline-engine ba their lead content.

    While lithium is good for the environment?

    Lithium is not considered a hazardous material, while lead is.

    The hell it isn't! (@_@)

    Oh...sorry, I guess you're actually right, there. They're both 'toxic' materials, as opposed to 'hazardous'...Technically, uranium isn't 'hazardous' either. Definitely bad for the environment, though, all three.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 11:22:00
    Can you back that statement up with researchable numbers?

    Do you expect me to do your homework? Naughty!

    No. I expect you to provide support to your claims. I wouldn't have said anything about pricing if I hadn't already 'done my homework' on it...I'm simply asking you to do the same.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 11:28:13
    Sorry, I keep /s'ing when I should be /q'ing...

    suggesting. I mean, without the batteries, sure. But again, without t batteries, that EV isn't going *anywhere*...

    I suggest that it goes exactly as long as an ICE without a petrol
    tank. No? :)

    Are you saying that the lighter of two equally inoperable vehicles is the better? Well, hell, why don't we rip that big heavy ICE out then, since we're not talking about useable cars anymore! Suddenly, they weigh the same again!

    Come on, man...put more effort into your arguments! I'm embarrassed for your sake! (o_O)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Thursday, March 17, 2022 16:42:24
    No. I expect you to provide support to your claims.

    Did the link I gave you help?

    BTW, according to the nodelist, you live in Ottawa, so I was surprised to hear about the absence of charging stations in your vicinity. According to the map that I have, there's at least half a dozen stations in downtown Ottawa -- and too many to count in Montreal.

    So, where do you live? And how far away are the nearest gas stations? I use plural, because you *do* compare prices?

    I myself could easily drive tens of km extra to a cheaper gas station than the one I have ten km from home.

    I'm really curious, not trying stir up something.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Thursday, March 17, 2022 11:32:56
    On 17 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    The largest ecological problem with disposing of gasoline-engi their lead content.

    While lithium is good for the environment?

    Lithium is not considered a hazardous material, while lead is.

    The hell it isn't! (@_@)

    Oh...sorry, I guess you're actually right, there. They're both 'toxic' materials, as opposed to 'hazardous'...Technically, uranium isn't 'hazardous' either. Definitely bad for the environment, though, all
    three.

    Lots of things are toxic but not hazardous.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Ron L. on Thursday, March 17, 2022 11:49:57
    On 17 Mar 2022, Ron L. said the following...
    While lithium is good for the environment?

    Hmmm... You can get some lithium metal from United Nuclear.

    Just because you can get lithium from a company called "United Nuclear"
    doesn't mean it's radioactive (it isn't).

    "Ultra pure quantities of the element Lithium (atomic number 3), sealed under Argon gas.

    Pure quantities of several of the metals found in the first column of the periodic tables, such as sodium and potassium, are also sold/transported/sold sealed with some other substance, whether gas or liquid) to keep them from coming into contact with water moisture.

    [...]
    Lithium is a very soft
    metal that can easily be cut with a knife. It reacts violently with
    water, liberating explosive Hydrogen gas. It is a flammable metal and
    can cause severe burns if it comes in contact with the skin. Like all alkali metals, Lithium should only be handled by those familiar with its properties.

    Other alkali metals include sodium and potassium and these are also flammable in their pure form. Nevertheless, you could not survive without them in your body, although we do not consume them in their pure form.

    This is also an issue with mercury. In its pure form, mercury is extremely poisonous, but can have different properties when combined with other
    elements. That's why the mercury compounds in some vaccines aren't harmful,
    any more than the sodium (which, remember, is a flammable metal!) in ordinary table salt isn't harmful.

    Not really something I'd like laying around.

    Lithium is also used in lubricants (to include in the moving parts of gasoline-powered vehicles) and in medications addressing bipolar disorder.

    But remember that Lefties can never see past their Narrative and can
    never understand the consequences of their decisions.

    In this case, there is far more nuance to the situation than Ron's either/or, black/white worldview allows for. It's his narrative that can't be reconciled with reality. And, especially considering the long-term effects of fossil
    fuels on the environment and the primarily conservative opposition to curbing their use, it would seem that it is not only the left that can fail to understand consequences of decisions.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Ron L. on Thursday, March 17, 2022 11:53:06
    On 17 Mar 2022, Ron L. said the following...
    But remember that Lefties can never see past their Narrative and can
    never understand the consequences of their decisions.

    Also:
    "<Squawk!>Lefties can never do this!<Squawk!>Lefties can never do that!<Squawk!>"

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 15:07:44
    No. I expect you to provide support to your claims.

    Did the link I gave you help?

    I honestly have not checked it yet. I will get there, I assure you.

    BTW, according to the nodelist, you live in Ottawa, so I was
    surprised to hear about the absence of charging stations in your
    vicinity. According to the map that I have, there's at least half a
    dozen stations in downtown Ottawa -- and too many to count in Montreal.

    Erm, yes, well, the nodelist isn't exactly a precise location. But Ottawa is the nearest major city. I live in a much more...rural...environment.

    So, where do you live? And how far away are the nearest gas stations?
    I use plural, because you *do* compare prices?

    I live about 100 km from Ottawa. Hence the 100 km commutes I mentioned
    earlier. (o_-)

    The nearest two gas stations are literally at each end of the particular
    block that I live on. However, I am living on the busiest street in my town. There are four more scattered about the wider general area.

    I myself could easily drive tens of km extra to a cheaper gas station than the one I have ten km from home.

    That definitely isn't the case, at least where I live. I mean, there are differences in price, if you go far enough...It's a bit cheaper near the US border, and a bit more expensive at the Quebec border...but that's a *long* drive to save a few pennies per liter. Local to me, all the prices are the same: stupidly high, at the moment...

    I'm really curious, not trying stir up something.

    I have never thought you were looking for trouble, despite my passing jokes
    to the contrary. And I'm happy to explain my point of view, if you're willing to listen!

    Cheers!

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Thursday, March 17, 2022 15:16:59
    The largest ecological problem with disposing of gasoline their lead content.

    While lithium is good for the environment?

    Lithium is not considered a hazardous material, while lead is.

    The hell it isn't! (@_@)

    Oh...sorry, I guess you're actually right, there. They're both 'toxic materials, as opposed to 'hazardous'...Technically, uranium isn't 'hazardous' either. Definitely bad for the environment, though, all three.

    Lots of things are toxic but not hazardous.

    And lots of (not all, because...things) humans are men but not women. Your point? (o_O)

    Lithium, in equal parts, is just as bad, if not worse, for the environment as lead. Which is kind of a dumb thing to say, even as I say it. Both of these elements literally *came* from the environment! Really, it's the process through which each is exploited that is harmful. Specific 'hazardous-ness' or toxicity is mostly irrelevant to the harmful effects they both have.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Thursday, March 17, 2022 15:23:22
    That's why the mercury compounds in some vaccines
    aren't harmful, any more than the sodium (which, remember, is a
    flammable metal!) in ordinary table salt isn't harmful.

    Not to mention all that dihydrogen monoxide they put in those vaccines! Can
    you believe the nerve of those Big Pharma bastards? (@_@)
    (sarcasm! (o_o) )

    Lithium is also used in lubricants (to include in the moving parts of gasoline-powered vehicles) and in medications addressing bipolar
    disorder.

    At some point, I knew the medicinal properties of litium would come up. I was looking for the right time to do so myself. (^_^)

    But remember that Lefties can never see past their Narrative and can never understand the consequences of their decisions.

    In this case, there is far more nuance to the situation than Ron's either/or, black/white worldview allows for. It's his narrative that
    can't be reconciled with reality. And, especially considering the long-term effects of fossil fuels on the environment and the primarily conservative opposition to curbing their use, it would seem that it is
    not only the left that can fail to understand consequences of decisions.

    Much better! *claps*
    And...point proven...(-_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Thursday, March 17, 2022 15:24:53
    On 17 Mar 2022, Jeff Thiele said the following...

    On 17 Mar 2022, Ron L. said the following...
    But remember that Lefties can never see past their Narrative and can never understand the consequences of their decisions.

    Also:
    "<Squawk!>Lefties can never do this!<Squawk!>Lefties can never do that!<Squawk!>"

    Jeff.

    I somehow *knew* that wasn't very far behind! That really made me laugh. Cheers!

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Thursday, March 17, 2022 20:39:02
    I have never thought you were looking for trouble, despite my passing jokes
    to the contrary. And I'm happy to explain my point of view, if you're willing to listen!

    Of course I'm willing to listen, you've never disappointed me. <3

    BTW, the Youtube link I gave you, also will get you a short glimpse of that incredible monster of a car, that this Welsh guy and his company can create.

    Do you remember the old VW Beetle? Are you nearly (I'm going 74) as old as I am, and into classic cars, surely you loved it?

    Well, that EV convert, shown at the end of that video, is a car that outperforms most of the mega dollar supercars around. Imagine buying a mega dollar supercar, and then a VW Beetle leaves you in the dust. :)

    Check out his channel, if you, like me, hate how all new cars look almost exactly the same, and love the old classics that stands out more and more today. I can almost guarantee that you will not be disappointed.




    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Thursday, March 17, 2022 14:54:13
    On 17 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    Lots of things are toxic but not hazardous.

    And lots of (not all, because...things) humans are men but not women.
    Your point? (o_O)

    Lithium, in equal parts, is just as bad, if not worse, for the
    environment as lead.

    There are different levels of toxicity. Lithium is less toxic than lead.

    Really, it's the process through which each is exploited that is
    harmful. Specific 'hazardous-ness' or toxicity is mostly irrelevant to
    the harmful effects they both have.

    "Hazardous-ness" is literally a measurement of the harmful effects something has.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Thursday, March 17, 2022 14:56:20
    On 17 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    That's why the mercury compounds in some vaccines
    aren't harmful, any more than the sodium (which, remember, is a flammable metal!) in ordinary table salt isn't harmful.

    Not to mention all that dihydrogen monoxide they put in those vaccines! Can you believe the nerve of those Big Pharma bastards? (@_@)
    (sarcasm! (o_o) )

    Exactly!

    Lithium is also used in lubricants (to include in the moving parts of gasoline-powered vehicles) and in medications addressing bipolar disorder.

    At some point, I knew the medicinal properties of litium would come up.
    I was looking for the right time to do so myself. (^_^)

    Lithium can be safely ingested in the right doses and under the right conditions. Lead cannot.

    But remember that Lefties can never see past their Narrative and never understand the consequences of their decisions.

    In this case, there is far more nuance to the situation than Ron's either/or, black/white worldview allows for. It's his narrative that can't be reconciled with reality. And, especially considering the long-term effects of fossil fuels on the environment and the primaril conservative opposition to curbing their use, it would seem that it i not only the left that can fail to understand consequences of decisio

    Much better! *claps*
    And...point proven...(-_-)

    Wait for it...

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Thursday, March 17, 2022 14:57:43
    On 17 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    On 17 Mar 2022, Ron L. said the following...
    But remember that Lefties can never see past their Narrative and never understand the consequences of their decisions.

    Also:
    "<Squawk!>Lefties can never do this!<Squawk!>Lefties can never do that!<Squawk!>"

    I somehow *knew* that wasn't very far behind! That really made me laugh. Cheers!

    There we go.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 16:11:18
    Of course I'm willing to listen, you've never disappointed me. <3

    Flattery will get you nowhere with me. (o_-)

    Do you remember the old VW Beetle? Are you nearly (I'm going 74) as
    old as I am, and into classic cars, surely you loved it?

    I think pretty much anyone in North America would remember the classic Bug.
    I'm a little younger than you are, sir. I insist that I am Gen X, even though
    I was born in literally the last week of '79...

    I'm definitely a bit of a gear-head, for sure. I like learning about, and talking about mechanics.

    Check out his channel, if you, like me, hate how all new cars look almost exactly the same, and love the old classics that stands out more and more today. I can almost guarantee that you will not be disappointed.

    Ah, but the newer technology under the hood looks nothing like what's in a classic. And that's far more important to me. (^_^)

    As I said, I will eventually get around to it. I did add the link to my enormous list of open browser tabs...

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Thursday, March 17, 2022 16:13:08
    Lithium, in equal parts, is just as bad, if not worse, for the environment as lead.

    There are different levels of toxicity. Lithium is less toxic than lead.

    Really, it's the process through which each is exploited that is harmful. Specific 'hazardous-ness' or toxicity is mostly irrelevant t the harmful effects they both have.

    "Hazardous-ness" is literally a measurement of the harmful effects something has.

    Come on, bud. Stop splitting hairs. (^_^)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 16:33:05
    on *17.03.22* at *11:14:04* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    or simply stretch your legs. I hope you do take regular breaks; else
    you're an unsafe driver and a fatal danger to the drivers around you.

    So, now the need to regularly stop for lengthy recharges is a SAFETY
    FEATURE?

    If you regard 15 minutes as lengthy, yes, I certainly do. Don't you?
    If that is not the general practise in the USA, maybe it is one of the many reasons that Tesla cars drive ten times longer between accidents, according to NHTSA:

    The people I know who own and drive EV cars say that a 15 minute charge from near empty to full is a pipe dream.

    If you're going to use the car just to drive a few miles to the grocery and back, an EV car may make sense. But any serious use is still not realistic.


    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Al Thompson on Thursday, March 17, 2022 17:14:50
    or simply stretch your legs. I hope you do take regular breaks; els
    you're an unsafe driver and a fatal danger to the drivers around yo

    So, now the need to regularly stop for lengthy recharges is a SAFETY
    FEATURE?

    If you regard 15 minutes as lengthy, yes, I certainly do. Don't yo If that is not the general practise in the USA, maybe it is one of th many reasons that Tesla cars drive ten times longer between accidents according to NHTSA:

    The people I know who own and drive EV cars say that a 15 minute charge from near empty to full is a pipe dream.

    If you're going to use the car just to drive a few miles to the grocery and back, an EV car may make sense. But any serious use is still not realistic.

    Sorry, Al, if I may interrupt?

    I'm pretty sure Bjorn used 15 minutes here as an example of taking a
    safety break, not as that of a fill-up. I also made mention of the time difference for a full recharge versus a full tank elsewhere.

    I fully agree. EVs are not well-suited for long road trips.

    Carry on. (^_^)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Thursday, March 17, 2022 16:46:00
    The original supposition was that the government is not doing much about gas prices because they are pushing an agenda. *IF* that supposition is true, then they are screwing up.

    The free-market enthusiasts are suddenly begging a Democrat president to live up to their generalizations about liberals and interfere in the free market. It's quite a conundrum.

    Not so ironic if they believe that government interference with the free
    market partially lead to the issue at hand.

    My daily/long-trip driver is not a pick-up. My assumption is that we got
    to talking pick-ups because you seem to be interested in them.

    Nor mine. I use the pick-up for hauling things and for towing our pop-up camper, almost exclusively in-state. Given its age and mileage, I honestly wouldn't even trust it to make a 400-mile-both-ways trip without needing some kind of repair.

    I have an old truck also, and it sounds like it gets used for similar
    things.


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to AL THOMPSON on Thursday, March 17, 2022 17:15:00
    Often enough that I don't want to buy a weenie car to do it in. It does not have to have muscle, but I don't want to be worried about whether or not it will get me there.

    And it's not like if you get stranded in the mountains that you can flag someo
    down for a can of electricity.

    That is true. The electic charge is not as portable. I guess they will
    have to have mobile charging trucks, too... and you will have to wait
    multiple hours, once they get there, before your auto is charged enough to
    move it.

    Stopping at an electric fuel station won't be free, either. You will be charged based on what they are paying for their electric which, as most of
    that still comes from fossil fuels, could be a lot.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Life is not a spectacle or a feast, it is a predicament.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Thursday, March 17, 2022 16:58:00
    Lithium is not considered a hazardous material, while lead is.

    See Ron's post about Lithium. Sounds hazardous to me. Even if it isn't,
    it is still something I would not want getting in the ground water.


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to RON L. on Thursday, March 17, 2022 16:59:00
    It reacts violently with water, liberating
    explosive Hydrogen gas. It is a flammable metal and can cause severe burns if it comes in contact with the skin. Like all alkali metals, Lithium should only
    be handled by those familiar with its properties.

    Not really something I'd like laying around.

    Considering how humid it can get here, neither would I.


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    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to SHAUN BUZZA on Thursday, March 17, 2022 17:08:00
    During the earlier part of the discussion, "affordable" was thrown out there. I have not looked lately, but Teslas tend to be out of the range I would call "affordable."

    Moreso than an F-150!

    Could be, I did not bring up the F-150. :) Back in 2000, I was car
    shopping. I stopped at the local Ford place. The salesman was complaining
    to me that he preferred selling trucks because there was a higher mark-up
    on them. He didn't seem too interested in selling me a car, so I did not
    buy from him.

    Since many companies have done away with cars that are not sports/performance, SUVs, or highly-marked-up pick-up trucks, there are a
    lot of gas models that I would no longer call "affordable."

    Okay, never mind the F-150 then... (o_O)

    I agree. Tesla especially, but *all* EVs are more expensive at the show-room than their gas equivalents. I did a comparison on the cheapest new gas vs EV car in Canada, earlier. The Chevy Spark costs nearly a third of a Nissan Leaf, at least at MSRP without any tax breaks or discounts.

    I was considering a hybrid the last time I was car shopping. The
    difference in price between the two models was shocking then (2016). Now,
    I suspect that part of the difference is a mark-up for being green (because some people will pay extra even if they cannot afford to) and also because
    the base electric/hybrid cars seem to have more non-necessity electronic
    gizmos (creature comforts) than the base gas-powered model.

    If they'd lose some of those, and sold them with the same things the gas
    base model is equipped with, I suspect the cost would have been closer.
    Would still have to pay the "green mark-up," though.

    I suspect our current US government is not doing much about the sudden rise in gas prices to intentionally make gas-powered things less attractive.

    "Don't attribute to malice what stupidity can explain" -Unknown

    In this case, I would think it's more about greed, rather than a push toward EVs. But, I'm not in the US government, nor even in the US. So, I definitely don't know what they're thinking. And, unlike some of our European friends, I am unwilling to make an @$$ of myself by making exaggerated assumptions about the US and its politics/politicians. (^_^)

    Oh there is that also, I am sure. They'd not be interested in pushing an agenda unless it got them something in return (most likely $$$$$$).

    I think you can make that assumption about politicians in most countries
    and be pretty safe. That is why they like to stay politicians.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 17, 2022 16:43:38
    On 17 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

    The original supposition was that the government is not doing much gas prices because they are pushing an agenda. *IF* that suppositio true, then they are screwing up.

    The free-market enthusiasts are suddenly begging a Democrat president to up to their generalizations about liberals and interfere in the free mar It's quite a conundrum.

    Not so ironic if they believe that government interference with the free market partially lead to the issue at hand.

    Have they any proof of this?

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Thursday, March 17, 2022 23:06:09
    The people I know who own and drive EV cars say that a 15 minute charge from near empty to full is a pipe dream.

    First of all, all *real* (not anecdotal) EV owners know perfectly well that you never go from 0-100% charge. You drive for a couple of hours, you need to take a piss, and then you top it up, which with a modern EV means from 60-80%. Ergo 15 minutes or less.

    With no disrespect for the people you know, but pray tell, how many of them have a modern EV car, as opposed to a hopelessly outdated car from the legacy auto makers they love? Remember that every other EV car company is now where Tesla was ten years ago, struggling to go from prototype (easy) to production (hard).

    If I had a Volvo (that I actually have) I'd start trying to get at least a fraction of what I paid for it, on the used market, ASAP. Within two years it'll be worthless. We already see it in our neighbouring country, Norway, with 95% EV adoption, expected to reach 100% this summer, and we (Sweden) is not even at 45% yet.

    And North America...? Well, I think you are not even at 5%, so maybe you have a lot of years ahead of you, before you have to bother about the second hand value of your F-150s. There seems to still be a lot of ignorant people around, who will buy your pile of crap for many years to come.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 17, 2022 17:14:18
    On 17 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Lithium is not considered a hazardous material, while lead is.

    See Ron's post about Lithium. Sounds hazardous to me. Even if it isn't, it is still something I would not want getting in the ground water.

    According to Ron's post, which was about pure Lithium, pure Lithium would not survive being exposed to the water table. It burns up on contact with water. Lithium combined with other elements does not burn up on contact with water, but neither does it have the properties referenced in Ron's post.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 17, 2022 17:19:08
    On 17 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

    It reacts violently with water, liberating
    explosive Hydrogen gas. It is a flammable metal and can cause severe bur it comes in contact with the skin. Like all alkali metals, Lithium shoul only
    be handled by those familiar with its properties.

    Not really something I'd like laying around.

    Considering how humid it can get here, neither would I.

    You're not going to find pure lithium just lying around. It's sealed in argon gas for a reason.

    Pure sodium also burns when it comes into contact with water, but nobody's saying "That's not something I'd like laying around" precisely because there
    is no pure sodium lying around. There are plenty of salts that contain sodium lying around, though! And other than some corrosion issues, they don't really cause anyone any harm.

    Don't forget, too, that sodium's partner in table salt is chlorine, and you definitely wouldn't want pure chlorine laying around!

    And yet, virtually everyone has sodium and chlorine in their kitchen to add flavor to their food.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 19:16:38
    And North America...? Well, I think you are not even at 5%, so maybe you have a lot of years ahead of you, before you have to bother about
    the second hand value of your F-150s. There seems to still be a lot of ignorant people around, who will buy your pile of crap for many years to come.

    To be fair, ignorant people are in plentiful supply no matter where on the globe you live. (o_-)

    There certainly has been some foot dragging in our market, no doubt as a
    result of generous 'anonymous donations' to various election campaigns and whatnot...

    (Yeah, there may be a lot of corruption, but to assume that all of them are corrupt is 'stereotyping')

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Thursday, March 17, 2022 19:30:57
    And yet, virtually everyone has sodium and chlorine in their kitchen to add flavor to their food.

    Not to mention a dihydrogen monoxide dispenser. And we all know what happens when you mix an alkali with dihydrogen monoxide! (x_X)

    I once had a buddy totally freaking out about the amount of dihydrogen
    monoxide coming out of sewers, and nuclear power plants, friggin' outer
    space even...not to mention the amount of this stuff that Big Brother was forcing down our throats with every pop, juice, coffee, or tea. And do you
    know how much they put in a bottle of water? 100%!

    "(@_@) no way! how do they get away with this!!!!1!11!"

    Don't blame *me*! The guy really shouldn't be smoking pot...he clearly can't spare the brain cells!

    ~\(o_O)/~

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Friday, March 18, 2022 00:43:37
    (Yeah, there may be a lot of corruption, but to assume that all of them are
    corrupt is 'stereotyping')

    LOL! You're da man for sure.

    You are of course right, as usual. But then, when in the US, even the Dem POTUS, known to have received millions of dollars in donations (new US English for bribes) from Big Pharma, and he suddenly will not make a move to at least get the cost of medicines down to even the same level as in the country north of him, you must admit that it easy to stereotype like that? :)



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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 20:22:29
    LOL! You're da man for sure.

    Far be it from me to disagree with that! (^_^)

    You are of course right, as usual. But then, when in the US, even the Dem POTUS, known to have received millions of dollars in donations (new
    US English for bribes) from Big Pharma, and he suddenly will not make a move to at least get the cost of medicines down to even the same level
    as in the country north of him, you must admit that it easy to
    stereotype like that? :)

    Hey, don't forget the cost of all that dihydrogen monoxide! (o_O)

    Just for reference, 'dihydrogen monoxide' is the chemical name for 'water'...Two hydrogen and one oxygen. Like 'sodium chloride' for salt,
    'citrus limon' for lemon, or 'concentrated ethyl alcohol' for tequila.

    But we were talking about the auto market, and gas vs EV, not pharmaceuticals...

    For the record, there are times when I am just as wrong as I currently am right. Those times often involve overconsumption of concentrated ethyl alcohol...and plenty of dihydrogen monoxide the next day! (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Friday, March 18, 2022 01:45:01
    Hey, don't forget the cost of all that dihydrogen monoxide! (o_O)

    And let's not forget about the hydroxychloroquine, the Trump promoted (he of course owned a lot of stock in the company producing it) cure for Covid-19, that made it possible to spread the virus in the US, and then to the rest of the world, while it was still easy.

    But, yes, chemistry was one of my PhD majors, so I absolutely got you about the water. A compound that actually can be lethal if consumed in an enough quantity -- like any other substance, normally harmless, known to mankind, if overdosed.



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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Friday, March 18, 2022 01:56:40
    Those times often involve overconsumption of concentrated ethyl alcohol...and plenty of dihydrogen monoxide the next day! (o_-)

    I just remembered that I had some hydroxyethane solution in my cupboard so I think I'll join you. Cheers. But I think I'll use coffee tomorrow, to cure the effects. :)



    ..

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 21:33:11
    Those times often involve overconsumption of concentrated ethyl alcohol...and plenty of dihydrogen monoxide the next day! (o_-)

    I just remembered that I had some hydroxyethane solution in my
    cupboard so I think I'll join you. Cheers. But I think I'll use coffee tomorrow, to cure the effects. :)

    Oh, I'm not having any tonight! It's not the weekend yet, and when I get into the hooch, I typically need at least a full day off to recuperate. (^_^)

    I have a pretty high tolerance for the immediate effects of alcohol, and a pretty *low* tolerance for the later effects, partly as a result of requiring more to achieve the desired level of immediate effect...

    Gone are the days where just a sniff of the stuff makes me wobbly! (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Friday, March 18, 2022 03:05:40
    Oh, I'm not having any tonight! It's not the weekend yet, and when I get into the hooch, I typically need at least a full day off to recuperate. (^_^)

    Ahhh... You must forgive this old geezer, retired since a decade ago. To me there's no longer any difference between one weekday from another. I can even take a drink before noon if I feel like it. (^_^)



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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 17, 2022 23:26:17
    Oh, I'm not having any tonight! It's not the weekend yet, and when I into the hooch, I typically need at least a full day off to recuperat (^_^)

    Ahhh... You must forgive this old geezer, retired since a decade ago. To me there's no longer any difference between one weekday from another.
    I can even take a drink before noon if I feel like it. (^_^)

    Hey, man. I have a copyright on those smileys. Every time you use one, you gotta give me a bottle of concentrated ethyl alcohol. Distilled, too; I don't want none of that nasty dihydrogen monoxide in it! (-_-)

    Now then, tell me more about your pre-lunch 'liquid lunches'...while I call your local chaper of Alcoholics Anonymous, wise guy... (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Mike Powell on Friday, March 18, 2022 04:21:49
    on *17.03.22* at *20:58:00* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *JEFF THIELE* about *"Re: Re^2: Do your part!"*.

    Lithium is not considered a hazardous material, while lead is.

    See Ron's post about Lithium. Sounds hazardous to me. Even if it isn't, it is still something I would not want getting in the ground water.

    I remember reading a couple of years ago that waters around San Francisco were contaminated with high levels of lithium from all of the anti-depressants that people there were taking and it wasn't being filtered out by the water purification systems.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Friday, March 18, 2022 04:36:36
    on *17.03.22* at *22:06:09* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    And North America...? Well, I think you are not even at 5%, so maybe you have a lot of years ahead of you, before you have to bother about the second hand value of your F-150s. There seems to still be a lot of ignorant people around, who will buy your pile of crap for many years to come.

    What's your infatuation with the F-150? The current fad is the Escalade or the Expedition.
    , unless you're on a farm.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Ron L.@1:120/616 to Shaun Buzza on Friday, March 18, 2022 08:55:36
    Shaun Buzza wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-

    Oh...sorry, I guess you're actually right, there. They're both 'toxic' materials, as opposed to 'hazardous'...Technically, uranium isn't 'hazardous' either. Definitely bad for the environment, though, all
    three.

    The main problem with lithium is it's flammable - especially when doused with water.

    But I don't believe it's toxic. However, it is used in psychiatric medications. So, unlike lead, we just may not have data on long term exposure to it in small doses.

    My dad was a science teacher. One year, he wanted to get rid of the sodium that the state wouldn't take off his hands. (Sodium is right below lithium on the periodic table.)

    So he looked up in his books about how to dispose of it. It was actually simple: Bury a small amount and water the area. It will react underground and everything's good.

    The short story: One of the kids watered it before it was covered and they spent the afternoon stomping out grass fires.


    ... Captain we're at 1700 CPS. The UARTs canna take much more
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/09/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (1:120/616)
  • From Ron L.@1:120/616 to Al Thompson on Friday, March 18, 2022 08:55:36
    Al Thompson wrote to Mike Powell <=-

    I remember reading a couple of years ago that waters around San
    Francisco were contaminated with high levels of lithium from all of the anti-depressants that people there were taking and it wasn't being filtered out by the water purification systems.

    I don't remember that. But I do remember a campaign to NOT flush your unused prescription drugs down the toilet. Pretty much for the same reason.


    ... You CAN trust the government...ask any Indian.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/09/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (1:120/616)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Al Thompson on Friday, March 18, 2022 10:22:48
    I remember reading a couple of years ago that waters around San
    Francisco were contaminated with high levels of lithium from all of the anti-depressants that people there were taking and it wasn't being filtered out by the water purification systems.

    Erm, I know I'm picking nits here, but lithium as a medicine is not an anti-depressant. It is a mood regulator. It is just as much anti-mania as anti-depression, which is why it was so popular for bipolar (aka manic-depressive) disorder.

    I would also suggest that there would be far more anti-depressants in the Seattle water supply than in any Californian water supplies. (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Al Thompson on Friday, March 18, 2022 10:32:49
    What's your infatuation with the F-150? The current fad is the Escalade or the Expedition, unless you're on a farm.

    I believe the current (2021) best-seller in the US is still the F-150. The Silverado and Ram 1500+ are second and third, respectively. I daresay it is
    not Bjorn who is infatuated with big-ass pickup trucks.

    https://www.edmunds.com/most-popular-cars/

    It's just as bad in igloo country, too. So many fools hopping in their dualie turbo-diesel soot farters, just to go to the end of the block for a slushie drink and a pack of gum.

    And, really, is an SUV any better? ESPECIALLY examples like the Escalade, or *shudder* the Hummer! (O_O)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Ron L. on Friday, March 18, 2022 10:42:36
    The main problem with lithium is it's flammable - especially when doused with water.

    Um...it's reactive, but that's not the same as flammable. Gasoline vapour is flammable, because it reacts explosively to the introduction of flame. This
    is not the case with lithium.

    But I don't believe it's toxic. However, it is used in psychiatric medications. So, unlike lead, we just may not have data on long term exposure to it in small doses.

    Even oxygen is toxic, at certain levels. I know, that's not the point, but...well...it's true...almost anything is toxic at certain levels.

    My dad was a science teacher. One year, he wanted to get rid of the sodium that the state wouldn't take off his hands. (Sodium is right
    below lithium on the periodic table.)

    Thank you, sir. I am quite familiar with the Periodic Table, and I know
    exactly what (and where) the alkali metals are. I don't understand, though,
    why the state would refuse to take away a dangerous substance, especially
    when freely offered.

    So he looked up in his books about how to dispose of it. It was actually simple: Bury a small amount and water the area. It will react
    underground and everything's good.

    The short story: One of the kids watered it before it was covered and they spent the afternoon stomping out grass fires.

    Hah, smart teacher, and dumb kids!

    He could also have used a sufficiently large amount of water, in a sufficiently strong container, and simply dumped the stuff in and waited a few seconds...I would imagine that would have been far more entertaining than burying it. (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Friday, March 18, 2022 16:00:00
    The original supposition was that the government is not doing much
    gas prices because they are pushing an agenda. *IF* that suppositi
    true, then they are screwing up.

    The free-market enthusiasts are suddenly begging a Democrat president t
    up to their generalizations about liberals and interfere in the free ma
    It's quite a conundrum.

    Not so ironic if they believe that government interference with the free market partially lead to the issue at hand.

    Have they any proof of this?

    That people *believe* that? I think we've seen that voiced here, right?


    * SLMR 2.1a * Cole fussion is against the slaws of physics.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Friday, March 18, 2022 16:06:00
    Don't forget, too, that sodium's partner in table salt is chlorine, and you definitely wouldn't want pure chlorine laying around!

    And yet, virtually everyone has sodium and chlorine in their kitchen to add flavor to their food.

    <goes to the kitchen to throw out all the salt!> :D


    * SLMR 2.1a * Walking in a winter wonderland.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Friday, March 18, 2022 16:09:21
    On 18 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Not so ironic if they believe that government interference with the market partially lead to the issue at hand.

    Have they any proof of this?

    That people *believe* that? I think we've seen that voiced here, right?

    Without evidence, yes.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Friday, March 18, 2022 17:29:40
    Not so ironic if they believe that government interference wit market partially lead to the issue at hand.

    Have they any proof of this?

    That people *believe* that? I think we've seen that voiced here, rig

    Without evidence, yes.

    Erm....wouldn't the people voicing their belief be *precisely* evidence of
    that belief?

    Ohhh. Took me a second to get what you were saying. But...that happens a lot
    in religion, too. People often act based on beliefs despite any evidence
    either for or against said beliefs. That's the difference between "I believe" and "I know", isn't it?

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Friday, March 18, 2022 17:19:45
    On 18 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    That people *believe* that? I think we've seen that voiced here

    Without evidence, yes.

    Erm....wouldn't the people voicing their belief be *precisely* evidence
    of that belief?

    I was referring to evidence to support said belief.

    Ohhh. Took me a second to get what you were saying. But...that happens a lot in religion, too. People often act based on beliefs despite any evidence either for or against said beliefs. That's the difference
    between "I believe" and "I know", isn't it?

    And that's exactly why I believe that religion, especially evangelical Christianity, primes people for authoritarianism.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Friday, March 18, 2022 18:44:27
    And that's exactly why I believe that religion, especially evangelical Christianity, primes people for authoritarianism.

    As opposed to political beliefs? Look around, man! (o_O)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Friday, March 18, 2022 18:02:31
    On 18 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    And that's exactly why I believe that religion, especially evangelica Christianity, primes people for authoritarianism.

    As opposed to political beliefs? Look around, man! (o_O)

    Exactly. Forgoing logic and reason in favor of faith is a hallmark of both Christianity and right-wing politics. It doesn't matter if it makes sense if you just *believe*, right?

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Friday, March 18, 2022 19:25:22
    As opposed to political beliefs? Look around, man! (o_O)

    Exactly. Forgoing logic and reason in favor of faith is a hallmark of
    both Christianity and right-wing politics. It doesn't matter if it makes sense if you just *believe*, right?

    Let's be clear, this isn't specific to 'right-wing' or 'left-wing'. It
    applies to *all* extremists, be it politics or religion. I'm sure you can
    come up with at least one example of this in the liberal camp as well, yes?

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Saturday, March 19, 2022 04:11:15
    Hello Al,

    You are assuming that everyone owns a house with a garage, and that
    the

    And you seem to assume that everyone who does not, have a gas
    station
    at home? The charging at home, at the superstore or at work is just
    the
    icing on the cake. Like gas stations, there's now charging stations
    all
    over the world.

    Perhaps, but your argument FOR EV cars was that you could recharge them overnight and thus wouldn't be disadvantaged by and hours-long charge during the day.

    I don't have a charging station, and I don't know of anyone who has one at their work. The closest charging station to me is about 15-20 miles away. Hardly what I would call convenient.

    The plan is for more charging stations to be made availabe. A lot
    more. And once those charging stations are in place, folks will flock
    to their nearest dealership and buy those electric cars in record
    numbers ...

    If you opt to have your own charging station, you can go one of two
    ways. The cheap route, which costs about $600, will get you a full
    charge over the course of about 12 hours. The premium route will
    cost you about $1000 more, but the benefit of getting a full charge
    while you drink a cup of coffee would be possible.

    --Lee

    --
    Because not everyone likes licorice

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Saturday, March 19, 2022 04:11:23
    Hello Björn,

    or simply stretch your legs. I hope you do take regular breaks; else
    you're an unsafe driver and a fatal danger to the drivers around you.

    So, now the need to regularly stop for lengthy recharges is a SAFETY
    FEATURE?

    If you regard 15 minutes as lengthy, yes, I certainly do. Don't you?

    The other night a head-on collision in Texas between a pick-up and
    a van left 9 people dead, and 2 people critically injured. The van
    was carrying members of the men and women's golf team, along with
    the coach and president of the university.

    The occupants of the pick-up truck was a 13 year-old-kid and her
    father. The cause of the crash was the 13 year-old driver crossing
    the center line and smashing head on into the van.

    This was at night, on a very narrow highway. Both vehicles burst
    into flames, and were basically incinerated, passersby unable to
    retrieve anybody inside due to the heat and flames. Only 2 people
    survived in the van, in critical contition, and are undergoing a
    very slow recovery.

    Maybe the kid's father was too tired to continue driving and needed
    a rest. So he allowed his kid to drive, thinking it was a good idea.

    Well, this was in Texas. Lots of desert stretches. And long miles.
    Not much traffic of any kind. And it was in the middle of the night.

    Sweet dreams.

    If that is not the general practise in the USA, maybe it is one of the many
    reasons that Tesla cars drive ten times longer between accidents, according
    to NHTSA:

    I don't think it would have mattered what kind of car that 13-year-old
    was driving.

    --Lee

    --
    Pork. The One You Love.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Saturday, March 19, 2022 06:54:35
    I don't think it would have mattered what kind of car that 13-year-old
    was driving.

    I beg to differ. With a Tesla FSD it's highly unlikely. The FSDs have been driven more than 20 million km without a single severe accident.



    ..

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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Saturday, March 19, 2022 06:02:20
    On 18 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    As opposed to political beliefs? Look around, man! (o_O)

    Exactly. Forgoing logic and reason in favor of faith is a hallmark of both Christianity and right-wing politics. It doesn't matter if it ma sense if you just *believe*, right?

    Let's be clear, this isn't specific to 'right-wing' or 'left-wing'. It applies to *all* extremists, be it politics or religion. I'm sure you can come up with at least one example of this in the liberal camp as well, yes?

    At least one, yes. But the degree to which this is a hallmark of the right is much, much greater.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Lee Lofaso on Saturday, March 19, 2022 12:37:10
    If you opt to have your own charging station, you can go one of two
    ways. The cheap route, which costs about $600, will get you a full
    charge over the course of about 12 hours. The premium route will
    cost you about $1000 more, but the benefit of getting a full charge
    while you drink a cup of coffee would be possible.

    I challenge this assertion on two fronts: the cost of a 'premium' charger,
    and the time it would take to charge an EV from dead to full using one.

    Even just considering the material cost, ignoring labour or permits, it would still be over $1600, at least in my situation. I'd have to have a custom circuit built to handle that much wattage.

    And, I daresay the batteries would *not* be full after a cup of coffee, but maybe I just drink mine faster...I've seen people take an hour to drink a single cup, but I wasn't aware that they were waiting for their car to charge...

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Saturday, March 19, 2022 12:41:49
    I beg to differ. With a Tesla FSD it's highly unlikely. The FSDs have been driven more than 20 million km without a single severe accident.

    Erm, to be clear, no single Tesla has been driven that far. And I can show
    you some videos from Teslas getting into pretty severe accidents, just here
    in North America. And we don't have an Autobahn!

    (I know, you're not German. But the Autobahn is a heck of a lot closer to you than I!)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Saturday, March 19, 2022 12:42:54
    At least one, yes. But the degree to which this is a hallmark of the
    right is much, much greater.

    I'm not entirely sure that's the case, but you spend a lot more time talking politics than I do. (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Saturday, March 19, 2022 12:54:00
    As opposed to political beliefs? Look around, man! (o_O)

    Exactly. Forgoing logic and reason in favor of faith is a hallmark of both Christianity and right-wing politics. It doesn't matter if it makes sense if you just *believe*, right?

    All politics. I point to the multiple gender belief as one the left tends
    to forgo logic and reason in favor of belief/feelings for.

    In the not too distant past, we had at least one left-leaning poster here
    whose beliefs seemed nearly all based on how they made him feel. No logic would budge his beliefs/feelings about topics he did not like.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Oxymoron: Pure sludge.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to SHAUN BUZZA on Saturday, March 19, 2022 12:54:00
    Let's be clear, this isn't specific to 'right-wing' or 'left-wing'. It applies to *all* extremists, be it politics or religion. I'm sure you can come up with at least one example of this in the liberal camp as well, yes?

    See the multiple-gender belief and many other beliefs based on how the
    subject "makes them feel" for examples.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Sorry, the Dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Saturday, March 19, 2022 13:23:56
    All politics. I point to the multiple gender belief as one the left
    tends to forgo logic and reason in favor of belief/feelings for.

    Oh, don't even get me started on that particular subject! Last I checked, we humans have one of only two sets of gender-specific organs...Hang on, I'll
    call one of my 'lady friends' and make sure my information is...updated... (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Saturday, March 19, 2022 13:50:59
    On 19 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    At least one, yes. But the degree to which this is a hallmark of the right is much, much greater.

    I'm not entirely sure that's the case, but you spend a lot more time talking politics than I do. (o_-)

    Authoritarianism is very much a hallmark of the right in the US.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Saturday, March 19, 2022 13:55:12
    On 19 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

    As opposed to political beliefs? Look around, man! (o_O)

    Exactly. Forgoing logic and reason in favor of faith is a hallmark of bo Christianity and right-wing politics. It doesn't matter if it makes sens you just *believe*, right?

    All politics. I point to the multiple gender belief as one the left
    tends to forgo logic and reason in favor of belief/feelings for.

    Why must everyone be forced to adhere to strict gender guidelines? This
    smacks of the days when women couldn't own property, couldn't vote, and couldn't get credit card without their husbands' permission.

    If a guy wants to wear a dress or a woman a suit, what's it to me? Absolutely nothing. If a trans woman wants to be addressed using feminine pronouns, or a trans male using masculine pronouns, what's it to me? Absolutely nothing.

    It's only the right that sees these things as an affront to God and nature,
    but in reality these are just man-made constructs.

    In the not too distant past, we had at least one left-leaning poster here whose beliefs seemed nearly all based on how they made him feel. No
    logic would budge his beliefs/feelings about topics he did not like.

    "Seemed."

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Saturday, March 19, 2022 22:19:31
    Erm, to be clear, no single Tesla has been driven that far.

    Single? Who's talking about a single car, or even model? FSDs, remember? As in plural. I suggest that you google for the model I was talking about...

    How far have F-150s been driven?


    ..

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Saturday, March 19, 2022 17:40:32
    Erm, to be clear, no single Tesla has been driven that far.

    Single? Who's talking about a single car, or even model? FSDs, remember? As in plural. I suggest that you google for the model I was talking about...

    How far have F-150s been driven?

    *facepalm*

    Bjorn, stop using that extreme opposite example. Comparing an EV to a pickup truck is akin to comparing a supercar to a minivan. You should also not be so specific to your champion, Tesla, when discussing EVs as a whole.

    Apples-to-apples, remember? Stop comparing only 'McIntosh' apples to, say, peaches...(o_O)

    Hmm...why am I suddenly so hungry?

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Saturday, March 19, 2022 23:12:33
    Hello Björn,

    I don't think it would have mattered what kind of car that 13-year-old
    was driving.

    I beg to differ. With a Tesla FSD it's highly unlikely. The FSDs have been driven more than 20 million km without a single severe accident.

    This was in Texas. When vehicles meet head-on in the middle of the
    night in Texas, people die. Even a kid could do it. As demonstrated.

    --Lee

    --
    Coronovirus doesn't effect rats n snakes so most of u are safe.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 03:14:52
    Hello Shaun,

    If you opt to have your own charging station, you can go one of two
    ways. The cheap route, which costs about $600, will get you a full
    charge over the course of about 12 hours. The premium route will
    cost you about $1000 more, but the benefit of getting a full charge
    while you drink a cup of coffee would be possible.

    I challenge this assertion on two fronts: the cost of a 'premium' charger, and the time it would take to charge an EV from dead to full using one.

    I doubt many people would want to wait until they are totally out of
    juice before tanking up. Going from half a tank, or from a quarter tank,
    is more likely. And then, not to "full" but rather to between 80% and
    90%.

    Even just considering the material cost, ignoring labour or permits, it would
    still be over $1600, at least in my situation. I'd have to have a custom circuit built to handle that much wattage.

    I would go the "premium" route, even if the cost is a bit more than
    my cited estimate.

    And, I daresay the batteries would *not* be full after a cup of coffee, but
    maybe I just drink mine faster...I've seen people take an hour to drink a single cup, but I wasn't aware that they were waiting for their car to charge...

    By "full" I was meaning about 80 percent, topping off to 100 percent
    is not practical or even desirable. Okay, I might grab a donut to go
    with the cup of coffee. But still ...

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Lee Lofaso on Sunday, March 20, 2022 02:44:26
    on *19.03.22* at *3:11:15* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    The plan is for more charging stations to be made availabe. A lot more. And once those charging stations are in place, folks will flock to their nearest dealership and buy those electric cars in record numbers ...

    If you opt to have your own charging station, you can go one of two ways. The cheap route, which costs about $600, will get you a full charge over the course of about 12 hours. The premium route will cost you about $1000 more, but the benefit of getting a full charge while you drink a cup of coffee would be possible.

    That still assumes that you have a garage or covered car park. Most apartment dwellers won't be able to do that, nor will many who are cursed to live in a city.

    I did a little research today on "affordable" EV cars. The Nissan Leaf seems the cheapest starting just under $30,000. It is claimed to get about 230 miles on a full charge. Slightly more expensive is the Mini-Cooper, which gets around 150 miles.

    I don't know how they come up with the milage ratings. Is it a sunny, cool spring day? Or is it 10 degrees at night, when you need heater, defroster, lights, etc?

    But either way, neither of those cars would SAFELY get me to any surrounding cities, one-way.

    I'll just hang on to my '98 Honda, for which I can easily find gas.


    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 08:31:46
    Comparing an EV to a pickup
    truck is akin to comparing a supercar to a minivan.

    I wasn't comparing performance, I was comparing safety. Lee's Texas Massacre, remember?



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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Sunday, March 20, 2022 08:36:32
    I did a little research today on "affordable" EV cars. The Nissan Leaf seems the cheapest starting just under $30,000.

    If the cost of buying the car is all you care about, you obviously missed the best selling car in China, the Wuling miniEV, starting just under $5,000.



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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Sunday, March 20, 2022 08:38:48
    I'll just hang on to my '98 Honda, for which I can easily find gas.

    How much does it cost to fill it up nowadays?

    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?


    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:14:57
    This was in Texas. When vehicles meet head-on in the middle of the
    night in Texas, people die. Even a kid could do it. As demonstrated.

    Not this kid, ms. FSD. She is a 13yo driver, who, just like that Texas kid, still is a long time from getting her driver's licence.

    But she's learning from the experience by her (ATM) 60,000 siblings. And, unlike your average teenage new learner, she's already far more experienced, and she improves every second of 24/7 driving by all her 60k siblings. Plus of course, she never gets tired, no matter how long she drives.

    You really should Google "Tesla FSD", a robot option you can get from only *one* car company for decades to come. Unless of course the other sleepers admit to their failure and license the FSD robot.

    Welcome to the future...



    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Sunday, March 20, 2022 12:26:26
    That still assumes that you have a garage or covered car park. Most apartment dwellers won't be able to do that, nor will many who are
    cursed to live in a city.

    And how many apartment houses are there, with less than some 10km away from the city centre, where you live?

    Close your eyes for a moment, and imagine this scenario:

    A sales person comes up to your door and offers to install a tap in your garage that will deliver an unlimited amount of gas to you car, delivered from a non-profit company, that will only charge you the actual cost for production and delivery (ATM it's around $8/brl all over the world, believe it or not).

    What would you be willing to pay for that installation?

    If she tells you, that if you agree to an upgrade of your car, you can enjoy taps at an increasing amount of your supermarkets, city centres, workplaces as well as gas stations all along your road net.

    What would you be willing to pay for that update?

    She then goes on and tells you that with the upgrade you'll never need to leave your car for regular service, and all you ever need to replenish is wiper fluid and worn down tires.

    What would you be willing to pay for that extra on your update?

    And then, as icing on the cake, she tells you that the fuel you'll get no longer will poison your children.

    Now, what would your wife be willing to pay for the entire package?


    ..

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Lee Lofaso on Sunday, March 20, 2022 09:14:25
    I doubt many people would want to wait until they are totally out of
    juice before tanking up. Going from half a tank, or from a quarter tank, is more likely. And then, not to "full" but rather to between 80% and
    90%.

    Isn't that a minus for EVs, though? A gas tank has none of these restrictions. I mean, it's not really good for the pumps and filters to completely drain the tank, but there's no need to keep that tank in the 'butter zone'. It won't
    harm it to fill it up to the point gas is spilling out, and there's no major, long-term harm in draining it completely. The same can't be said for any lithium-tech battery.

    Not to mention, if one is strictly adhering to the 25%-80% region, one is basically giving up roughly 1/4 of the total range...and range is already a problem!

    Even just considering the material cost, ignoring labour or permits, would
    still be over $1600, at least in my situation. I'd have to have a cus circuit built to handle that much wattage.

    I would go the "premium" route, even if the cost is a bit more than
    my cited estimate.

    Well, I'll do the same, as long as *you* pay for it! (o_-)

    And, I daresay the batteries would *not* be full after a cup of coffe but
    maybe I just drink mine faster...I've seen people take an hour to dri single cup, but I wasn't aware that they were waiting for their car t charge...

    By "full" I was meaning about 80 percent, topping off to 100 percent
    is not practical or even desirable. Okay, I might grab a donut to go
    with the cup of coffee. But still ...

    "But still" my butt.

    You can't change the story that much and still have a valid point. "The sky is purple...What I meant is that it's *rarely* purple, and only under
    certain conditions. But still..." (o_O)

    McDoob
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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 20, 2022 09:19:24
    Comparing an EV to a pickup
    truck is akin to comparing a supercar to a minivan.

    I wasn't comparing performance, I was comparing safety. Lee's Texas Massacre, remember?

    COME ON! (@_@)

    You'd been making that comparison long before Lee joined the conversation!
    And you very much *were* comparing performance, at least in economy/range!

    Dood! Don't insult our respective intelligence! Not cool!

    McDoob
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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 20, 2022 09:24:10
    If the cost of buying the car is all you care about, you obviously missed the best selling car in China, the Wuling miniEV, starting just under $5,000.

    Which goes all of 35 kph and has a range of about 50 km? You get what you pay for, there.

    For the record, that's an exaggeration of both top speed and range. I think it's closer to 80 kph and 150 km...There are some cheap-as-a-$5-hooker EVs coming out of China that aren't worth buying...Wuling sits at the top of that list.

    McDoob
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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 20, 2022 09:25:42
    I'll just hang on to my '98 Honda, for which I can easily find gas.

    How much does it cost to fill it up nowadays?

    Probably still less than 1% the cost of switching to electric?

    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?

    Far less than the cost of a battery repair/service, I'm sure.

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 20, 2022 09:37:34
    A sales person comes up to your door and offers to install a tap in your garage that will deliver an unlimited amount of gas to you car, delivered from a non-profit company, that will only charge you the
    actual cost for production and delivery (ATM it's around $8/brl all over the world, believe it or not).

    What? (@_@)

    You know full well that's not a good comparison. Try "very limited", "very much FOR-profit", and "actual cost plus separate markups from several separate entities along the way".

    Do you have any idea how national electric grids work? (o_O)

    If she tells you, that if you agree to an upgrade of your car, you
    can enjoy taps at an increasing amount of your supermarkets, city
    centres, workplaces as well as gas stations all along your road net.

    But only at these 'taps', and nowhere else. If there aren't any nearby, here's hoping you wear comfortable shoes, because you're gonna be walking. There's
    no Good Samaritan with a full Jerry can to help you. These new 'taps' can't
    be used to fill small containers.

    What would you be willing to pay for that installation?
    What would you be willing to pay for that update?

    Still nothing. Well, maybe the exact same as the one I already own. But *not* 3x as much, plus the installation. It certainly isn't as convenient a system
    as you are suggesting, especially in North America.

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 14:37:48
    Dood! Don't insult our respective intelligence! Not cool!

    Dude! I'd never do that, and I think you that.

    If ever I made a performance comparison before Lee's Texas Massacre, surely you know that it was in a completely different ball game. No? ;) (no copyright violated?)



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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 15:02:51
    You know full well that's not a good comparison.

    Actually I don't. It was not a comparison to any present situation, it was an imagined future scenario.

    Try "very limited", "very much
    FOR-profit", and "actual cost plus separate markups from several separate entities along the way".

    Exactly, spot on. That's what you have now.

    Do you have any idea how national electric grids work? (o_O)

    Dude! Do you have any idea how national electric grids work in Sweden. Sorry, maybe I overestimated the similarities of our two countries. You are more US than Anglo-Saxon nowadays, no?

    But only at these 'taps', and nowhere else. If there aren't any nearby, here's
    hoping you wear comfortable shoes, because you're gonna be walking. There's
    no Good Samaritan with a full Jerry can to help you. These new 'taps' can't
    be used to fill small containers.

    Hmmm... So when you run out of fuel on your daily 100km drive now, how does that differ?

    as you are suggesting, especially in North America.

    I notice that you dodged my final, and IMHO most important, question... ;)




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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 20, 2022 10:25:43
    Dood! Don't insult our respective intelligence! Not cool!

    Dude! I'd never do that, and I think you that.

    I was being...facetious? Exaggerant? Something like that...I agree, you
    haven't been directly insulting, at least to me.

    If ever I made a performance comparison before Lee's Texas Massacre, surely you know that it was in a completely different ball game. No? ;) (no copyright violated?)

    Have you not noticed that I have refused to mention Lee's comments about that accident, at all? That's partly because a couple of my fellow countrymen were in that accident (and are the only survivors, ironically), and partly because that's not the point.

    I've been discussing your comparison between (specifically Tesla) EVs and F-150s. 'McIntosh' apples to pears. Not specifically performance or safety,
    but *any* comparison there is worthless.

    Compare a sedan to a sedan, a SUV to a SUV, and a truck to a truck. If you
    wish to continue using the F-150 as the symbol of all that is evil in a gas vehicle, at least compare it to Rivian's R1T. Tesla doesn't make a pickup truck...well, there's that CyberTruck abomination, but let's just not go there...

    McDoob
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 15:28:54
    How much does it cost to fill it up nowadays?

    Probably still less than 1% the cost of switching to electric?

    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?

    Far less than the cost of a battery repair/service, I'm sure.

    How much have they told you that such an operation will cost, and after how many miles, and at what level of battery degradation it will be necessary?

    And also compared to how many miles an ICE engine will run until it needs to be replaced. The cost of that? Not worth it, just scrap the entire car, no? Since you are *sure*

    How come you do not want to admit to how much your old ICE car actually costs you every year? Have you even kept track of it.

    My advice is: don't! I did a few years ago, and I changed my entire life after that... ;)



    ..

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 20, 2022 10:41:31
    Try "very limited", "very much
    FOR-profit", and "actual cost plus separate markups from several sepa entities along the way".

    Exactly, spot on. That's what you have now.

    Yes, exactly what we have now, IN ELECTRIC VEHICLES. Unlimited? No, or it
    would be faster than filling a gas tank. Non-profit? Yeah, sure. And down is up, north is south, and wet is dry. Actual cost? You're either dreaming, or insane.

    Do you have any idea how national electric grids work? (o_O)

    Dude! Do you have any idea how national electric grids work in Sweden. Sorry, maybe I overestimated the similarities of our two countries. You are more US than Anglo-Saxon nowadays, no?

    I don't like the suggestion that I'm anything *like* my noisy neighbours, but that's a fair point. However, I'm also not *using* the electric grids in Sweden; I'm using (and comparing with) what is available here.

    There's
    no Good Samaritan with a full Jerry can to help you. These new 'taps' can't
    be used to fill small containers.

    Hmmm... So when you run out of fuel on your daily 100km drive now,
    how does that differ?

    You've...never been to Canada, have you? (o_O)

    If you're on the side of the road, with your blinkers on, for more than five minutes before someone stops to help, that's unusual. If they see a car like that, and a guy walking nearby, they'll know exactly why. Often times,
    they'll give you whatever's in their Jerry can for free! If not, they're
    just as likely to drive you to the nearest gas station, *and back*!

    I keep $5 in my Jerry can for just that situation.

    There's a reason why I don't like being compared to Americans. I am very
    proud to be a Canadian. We're the nicest people on the planet...until you piss us off, that is...ask anyone who has been on the other side of a war from us.

    McDoob
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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 20, 2022 10:59:52
    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?

    Far less than the cost of a battery repair/service, I'm sure.

    How much have they told you that such an operation will cost, and
    after how many miles, and at what level of battery degradation it will
    be necessary?

    "They" have told me nothing. I make my own observations. Currently, the cheapest battery replacement for your hero, the Tesla, is about $12k CAD,
    just for the battery. Conversely, an entire SkyAktiv replacement (engine and transmission), including labour, would run me up...half that much? Maybe
    three quarters?

    Battery condition isn't limited only to miles driven, and you know it. Otherwise you wouldn't be so concerned about the top and bottom of the
    battery, when charging or discharging. As far as what level of degradation is acceptable, that depends on the individual owner, doesn't it?

    And also compared to how many miles an ICE engine will run until it needs to be replaced. The cost of that? Not worth it, just scrap the entire car, no? Since you are *sure*

    I kind of touched on that already. Some gas engines can easily outlive the car's body, if properly maintained. Certainly, a half-million miles is
    possible with *most* gas engines.

    Yes, if the replacement engine is worth more than the entire car, it's likely that the car gets scrapped. The same can be said for an EV's battery pack.

    How come you do not want to admit to how much your old ICE car
    actually costs you every year? Have you even kept track of it.

    My advice is: don't! I did a few years ago, and I changed my entire life after that... ;)

    Do you take my lack of admittance as unwillingness? That is not the case.

    I do keep careful track of everything I spend on my car, as its a tax-deductible 'business expense'. With upkeep, fuel, and insurance, I think I spent...about $10k in total last year? I'd have to check to be certain, and admittedly, most of that would be fuel. However, that's still cheaper than buying 1/3 of an EV, or even just a battery pack!

    It will be quite a long time before EVs become competitive in price, unless fuel prices continue to skyrocket. I'm not at all certain that this year's 'business expense' calculation will be so low as last year's.

    McDoob
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  • From Ron L.@1:120/616 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:40:22
    Shaun Buzza wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Um...it's reactive, but that's not the same as flammable. Gasoline
    vapour is flammable, because it reacts explosively to the introduction
    of flame. This is not the case with lithium.

    You are correct that lithium is not as explosive as gasoling. But lithium reacts violently with water. Hydrogen gas is released from that reaction. So, yes, it's explosive.

    Thank you, sir. I am quite familiar with the Periodic Table, and I know exactly what (and where) the alkali metals are. I don't understand, though, why the state would refuse to take away a dangerous substance, especially when freely offered.

    It was a political issue. The state came through one year and took all the "dangerous" chemicals out of his lab. They forgot to take the sodium. When my dad let them know of their mistake, their response was along the lines of "We already have it marked down as taken, so you are trying to get us to dispose of personal property" and refused to take it.

    Hah, smart teacher, and dumb kids!

    Well, it was 8th grade. So you can't expect the kids to know too much.

    But he did expect them to follow instructions. IHMO: I think the kid just wanted to see sodium explode. It's not like there was YouTube back then with dozens of sodium-in-the-lake videos.

    He could also have used a sufficiently large amount of water, in a sufficiently strong container, and simply dumped the stuff in and
    waited a few seconds...I would imagine that would have been far more entertaining than burying it. (o_-)

    Ya, but the police station was next door and they might not like something like that.


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to SHAUN BUZZA on Sunday, March 20, 2022 10:54:00
    All politics. I point to the multiple gender belief as one the left tends to forgo logic and reason in favor of belief/feelings for.

    Oh, don't even get me started on that particular subject! Last I checked, we humans have one of only two sets of gender-specific organs...Hang on, I'll call one of my 'lady friends' and make sure my information is...updated... (o_-)

    Some people can be born with both.

    Biology and physiology can be ignored by some when the science of "feelingsology" contradicts them. In this particular case, those "some"
    are not on the political right.


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:04:00
    As opposed to political beliefs? Look around, man! (o_O)

    Exactly. Forgoing logic and reason in favor of faith is a hallmark of b
    Christianity and right-wing politics. It doesn't matter if it makes sen
    you just *believe*, right?

    All politics. I point to the multiple gender belief as one the left tends to forgo logic and reason in favor of belief/feelings for.

    Why must everyone be forced to adhere to strict gender guidelines? This smacks of the days when women couldn't own property, couldn't vote, and couldn't get credit card without their husbands' permission.

    And here we go, bringing up things to stir up people's feelings in order to ignore biology.

    True, but that requires forgoing logic/science in favor of one's personal beliefs and feelings, which is *exactly* what this thread was about.

    The folks who are most willing to forgo that logic and science in favor of beliefs and feelings, which is *exactly* what this thread is about, are not usually "right-wingers," which proves my point that both sides will forgo
    logic and science when it contradicts their feelings and beliefs.

    It's only the right that sees these things as an affront to God and nature, but in reality these are just man-made constructs.

    Man doesn't decide if a fertilized egg becomes XX or XY (or, in rare
    cases, a mix of both). Nature and science do that. Nothing man-made about that.

    In the not too distant past, we had at least one left-leaning poster here
    whose beliefs seemed nearly all based on how they made him feel. No logic would budge his beliefs/feelings about topics he did not like.

    "Seemed."

    I was being nice and giving benefit of doubt. The beliefs in question were 100% based on things that made this person feel good or bad. On rare occassion, I am certain that there were intersections with logic but that
    was not often.

    To return to a point you made earlier:

    If a guy wants to wear a dress or a woman a suit, what's it to me? Absolutely nothing. If a trans woman wants to be addressed using feminine pronouns, or a trans male using masculine pronouns, what's it to me? Absolutely nothing.

    I really don't care, either, but I am basing that opinion on feelings and
    the belief that they are free to do what they want. My opinion here is completely without basis in biology, logic, or even politics or religion.
    I am willing to admit this. If I were a left-leaning person, based on my interactions with such people, I am guessing I would never be willing to
    admit this.


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:12:00
    At least one, yes. But the degree to which this is a hallmark of the
    right is much, much greater.

    I'm not entirely sure that's the case, but you spend a lot more time talking politics than I do. (o_-)

    Authoritarianism is very much a hallmark of the right in the US.

    Sure it is.


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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Ron L. on Sunday, March 20, 2022 12:36:11
    Um...it's reactive, but that's not the same as flammable. Gasoline vapour is flammable, because it reacts explosively to the introductio of flame. This is not the case with lithium.

    You are correct that lithium is not as explosive as gasoling. But
    lithium reacts violently with water. Hydrogen gas is released from that reaction. So, yes, it's explosive.

    No, sir. It is hydrogen that is 'explosive'. Except it isn't; it's just extremely flammable. A hydrogen 'explosion' cannot be compared to that of ANFO or dynamite.

    I don't understand,
    though, why the state would refuse to take away a dangerous substance especially when freely offered.

    It was a political issue. The state came through one year and took all the "dangerous" chemicals out of his lab. They forgot to take the
    sodium. When my dad let them know of their mistake, their response was along the lines of "We already have it marked down as taken, so you are trying to get us to dispose of personal property" and refused to take it.

    That makes perfect nonsense, which is what I would expect from anyone working for the government. (o_-)

    But he did expect them to follow instructions. IHMO: I think the kid
    just wanted to see sodium explode. It's not like there was YouTube back then with dozens of sodium-in-the-lake videos.

    Yep. As the old saying goes, "Curiosity killed the kid!" Or was that...cat?

    Ya, but the police station was next door and they might not like
    something like that.

    They'd certainly have some interesting questions, afterward! (^_^)

    McDoob
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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Sunday, March 20, 2022 12:50:04
    Some people can be born with both.

    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps born with a genetic abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the other. But born with a fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    Biology and physiology can be ignored by some when the science of "feelingsology" contradicts them. In this particular case, those "some" are not on the political right.

    And that's the bigger problem. "How dare you assume my gender! These aren't tits, they're 'breasticles'!" [insert 'triggered' meme here]

    I did say 'don't get me started', didn't I? Why the F didn't you listen? (Q_Q)

    McDoob
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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Sunday, March 20, 2022 12:58:27
    If a guy wants to wear a dress or a woman a suit, what's it to me? Absol nothing. If a trans woman wants to be addressed using feminine pronouns, trans male using masculine pronouns, what's it to me? Absolutely nothing

    I really don't care, either, but I am basing that opinion on feelings and the belief that they are free to do what they want. My opinion here is completely without basis in biology, logic, or even politics or religion. I am willing to admit this. If I were a left-leaning person, based on my interactions with such people, I am guessing I would never be willing to admit this.

    Well said, and exactly how I feel, about this and many other topics. Let each person choose for themself how they wish to live. In smaller terms, I am pro-choice...Lee...(o_O)

    But, again, this isn't restricted to either side of the coin. There are just
    as many close-minded conservatives as there are liberals. This is one reason why I am...both? Neither? Not sure which of these apply...

    McDoob
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 20, 2022 20:44:52
    Hello Björn,

    This was in Texas. When vehicles meet head-on in the middle of the
    night in Texas, people die. Even a kid could do it. As demonstrated.

    Not this kid, ms. FSD. She is a 13yo driver, who, just like that Texas kid,
    still is a long time from getting her driver's licence.

    There are loooooong stretches of open highway in Texas. And staying
    awake late at night while driving on those narrow roads can be quite
    trying. But even with FSD it would not make things perfect. FSD is
    still an emerging technology, and has its limitations.

    But she's learning from the experience by her (ATM) 60,000 siblings. And, unlike your average teenage new learner, she's already far more experienced, and she improves every second of 24/7 driving by all her 60k siblings. Plus of course, she never gets tired, no matter how long she drives.

    It does not work as advertised, and turns off completely at 80 mph.
    And only available for those who can afford a Tesla. It may be the
    direction Musk wants to go, and probably is, but that does not mean
    he is there yet. Or even close.

    You really should Google "Tesla FSD", a robot option you can get from only *one* car company for decades to come. Unless of course the other sleepers admit to their failure and license the FSD robot.

    An interesting concept, and already here in limited form. But still
    in the realm of science fiction in the sense of a truly self-driving
    car.

    Welcome to the future...

    We would hardly recognize it, even if we were to get there.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to SHAUN BUZZA on Sunday, March 20, 2022 15:49:00
    Some people can be born with both.

    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps born with a genetic abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the other. But born with a fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    Fully functioning, maybe not, but hermaphrodites do naturally occur.

    Biology and physiology can be ignored by some when the science of "feelingsology" contradicts them. In this particular case, those "some" are not on the political right.

    And that's the bigger problem. "How dare you assume my gender! These aren't tits, they're 'breasticles'!" [insert 'triggered' meme here]

    I did say 'don't get me started', didn't I? Why the F didn't you listen? (Q_Q)

    I think we were already started into it. :)


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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Sunday, March 20, 2022 16:46:49
    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps born with a geneti abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the other. But born wit fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    Fully functioning, maybe not, but hermaphrodites do naturally occur.

    Come on, man! Don't be a Jeff (or a Ron, since I don't want to offend Jeffie). When I said 'no human is born with two sets of sex organs', functionality was very much implied!

    Hermaphrodism is exactly what I said: a genetic abberation. Same as in marijuana, same as in fruit flies. Too many X's, or not enough Y's, depending on which particular plant/animal (plantimal?).

    And that's the bigger problem. "How dare you assume my gender! These are tits, they're 'breasticles'!" [insert 'triggered' meme here]

    I did say 'don't get me started', didn't I? Why the F didn't you listen? (Q_Q)

    I think we were already started into it. :)

    I really do try to avoid this subject, Mike. As a Christian, I have some
    pretty strong feelings about it (along with 'gender preference' in sex). It's not like I *want* to piss everyone off, and I'm already pissing plenty of people off without even mentioning this! (o_O)

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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 17:54:09
    On 20 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps born with a g abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the other. But bor fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    Fully functioning, maybe not, but hermaphrodites do naturally occur.

    Come on, man! Don't be a Jeff (or a Ron, since I don't want to offend Jeffie). When I said 'no human is born with two sets of sex organs', functionality was very much implied!

    So if someone is born with one set, but that one set is not fully functional, they are of no gender? If ou can ignore a non-fully-functional set when
    there's more than one set, it seems like you should ignore that same non-fully-functional set when there is only the one set.

    Also, genitalia are not the be-all-end-all of human sexuality. Human
    sexuality is a spectrum that often defies simple classification.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Sunday, March 20, 2022 19:16:16
    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps born wit abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the other. Bu fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    Fully functioning, maybe not, but hermaphrodites do naturally oc

    Come on, man! Don't be a Jeff (or a Ron, since I don't want to offend Jeffie). When I said 'no human is born with two sets of sex organs', functionality was very much implied!

    So if someone is born with one set, but that one set is not fully functional, they are of no gender? If ou can ignore a
    non-fully-functional set when there's more than one set, it seems like
    you should ignore that same non-fully-functional set when there is only the one set.

    Um...yes? Both are genetic abberations. And neither can effectively procreate.

    Also, genitalia are not the be-all-end-all of human sexuality. Human sexuality is a spectrum that often defies simple classification.

    Clearly, this is a subject that we are not going to agree on. In this case, I *do* believe in a 'black-and-white' definition. You're either man or woman. Or genetic abberation, a different topic entirely.

    Not to mention the many times that the Good Book says 'Thou shalt not lie
    with another man, and neither shall a woman lie with another woman.' (except
    in porn...that's kinda hot! -McD)

    Like I have often reminded you, I am liberal on some things, and conservative on others. In this case, I am...conservative? Liberal? <o_O? Sometimes, I don't even know which is which!

    Except, I know which side of the line you've placed yourself. And in this
    case, I fully disagree with you.

    This doesn't mean I dislike you, Jeffie! <3

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 18:56:43
    On 20 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps bor abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the othe fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    Fully functioning, maybe not, but hermaphrodites do natural

    Come on, man! Don't be a Jeff (or a Ron, since I don't want to o Jeffie). When I said 'no human is born with two sets of sex orga functionality was very much implied!

    So if someone is born with one set, but that one set is not fully functional, they are of no gender? If ou can ignore a non-fully-functional set when there's more than one set, it seems lik you should ignore that same non-fully-functional set when there is on the one set.

    Um...yes? Both are genetic abberations. And neither can effectively procreate.

    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Clearly, this is a subject that we are not going to agree on. In this case, I *do* believe in a 'black-and-white' definition. You're either
    man or woman. Or genetic abberation, a different topic entirely.

    I think you're already agreeing more than you intended to.

    Not to mention the many times that the Good Book says 'Thou shalt not lie with another man, and neither shall a woman lie with another woman.' (except in porn...that's kinda hot! -McD)

    Not everyone subscribes to the Bible, and of those that do, not everyone
    gives the laws of the Old Testament the same authority as the New, especially in terms of bacon and shrimp. Or bacon-wrapped shrimp. Yow.

    Like I have often reminded you, I am liberal on some things, and conservative on others. In this case, I am...conservative? Liberal?
    <o_O? Sometimes, I don't even know which is which!

    Indeed, you sound a bit confused. If you don't want to violate your God's
    laws, then don't violate your God's laws. It's as simple as that. What makes you think that you've been put on this Earth to impose your God's laws on others?

    Except, I know which side of the line you've placed yourself. And in this case, I fully disagree with you.

    Not so much as you might think. We're up to 3 genders.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Sunday, March 20, 2022 20:55:24
    Um...yes? Both are genetic abberations. And neither can effectively procreate.

    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Incorrect. Male, female, and 'non-human'. Non-human is not a gender.
    Please, I'm begging you, don't! I really don't like talking about this!

    Clearly, this is a subject that we are not going to agree on. In this case, I *do* believe in a 'black-and-white' definition. You're either man or woman. Or genetic abberation, a different topic entirely.

    I think you're already agreeing more than you intended to.

    I think you're an a-hole. Neither of us is correct. (o_-)

    Not to mention the many times that the Good Book says 'Thou shalt not with another man, and neither shall a woman lie with another woman.' (except in porn...that's kinda hot! -McD)

    Not everyone subscribes to the Bible, and of those that do, not everyone gives the laws of the Old Testament the same authority as the New, especially in terms of bacon and shrimp. Or bacon-wrapped shrimp. Yow.

    Not everyone subscribes to POLITICS, either. What's your point?
    Speaking as a Christian, I really need to try bacon-wrapped shrimp, ASAP!

    You're either athiest, or agnostic, aren't you? You literally have no idea where Judaism ends and Christianity begins. Please restrict yourself to
    topics you actually know about in the future, just as I do.

    Mike needs to put a stop to this conversation! Religion is supposed to be taboo!

    But...until then...

    Like I have often reminded you, I am liberal on some things, and conservative on others. In this case, I am...conservative? Liberal? <o_O? Sometimes, I don't even know which is which!

    Indeed, you sound a bit confused. If you don't want to violate your God's laws, then don't violate your God's laws. It's as simple as that. What makes you think that you've been put on this Earth to impose your God's laws on others?

    Have I done so? Even when abortion came up, did I do so? I think not, but please correct me.

    I'm a Christian, not a 'bible thumper'. I literally do not care what anyone else believes. Their beliefs do not affect my Gift! And, clearly, my beliefs don't affect their sinful ways. And that's okay! Everyone was given that
    choice by God Himself!

    Mike, please step in at any time! I am really trying to be nice here, but
    Jeff is pushing buttons I would rather he didn;t...

    I love you, Jeff, in a totally heterosexual way. But, please...don't...
    This really is a sensitive subject for me...And religion has no place in this echo.

    Please? Man to man: let this go, and don't bring it up again. Thank you in advance.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Sunday, March 20, 2022 21:08:37
    Please? Man to man: let this go, and don't bring it up again. Thank you
    in advance.

    I promise: I will never mention $10 Pi-based BBSes ever again! Well, after this, obviously...(o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Sunday, March 20, 2022 22:06:25
    On 20 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...

    Um...yes? Both are genetic abberations. And neither can effectiv procreate.

    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Incorrect. Male, female, and 'non-human'. Non-human is not a gender. Please, I'm begging you, don't! I really don't like talking about this!

    So a person with non-functioning genitalia is a non-human? Wow!

    Clearly, this is a subject that we are not going to agree on. In case, I *do* believe in a 'black-and-white' definition. You're e man or woman. Or genetic abberation, a different topic entirely.

    I think you're already agreeing more than you intended to.

    I think you're an a-hole. Neither of us is correct. (o_-)

    It's not my fault that reality intrudes on your neatly-organized worldview.

    Not to mention the many times that the Good Book says 'Thou shal with another man, and neither shall a woman lie with another wom (except in porn...that's kinda hot! -McD)

    Not everyone subscribes to the Bible, and of those that do, not every gives the laws of the Old Testament the same authority as the New, especially in terms of bacon and shrimp. Or bacon-wrapped shrimp. Yow

    Not everyone subscribes to POLITICS, either. What's your point?

    A religion's rules should only apply to adherents of that religion. One can't impose the rules of one's religion on others not of that religion.

    Speaking as a Christian, I really need to try bacon-wrapped shrimp, ASAP!

    Absolutely! Unless your religion forbids the consumption of pork or shellfish.

    You're either athiest, or agnostic, aren't you? You literally have no
    idea where Judaism ends and Christianity begins. Please restrict
    yourself to topics you actually know about in the future, just as I do.

    Judaism ends and Christianity begins at precisely the point that is most convenient for the believer in question. Exactly how much of the "Old
    Covenant" is superseded by the "New Covenant" is never precisely defined.

    I would say that I'm extremely familiar with Christianity, less so with Judaism.

    Mike needs to put a stop to this conversation! Religion is supposed to be taboo!

    Then why did you use it in an attempt to restrict human sexuality?

    Indeed, you sound a bit confused. If you don't want to violate your G laws, then don't violate your God's laws. It's as simple as that. Wha makes you think that you've been put on this Earth to impose your God laws on others?

    Have I done so? Even when abortion came up, did I do so? I think not, but please correct me.

    Who are you to impose sexual standards on others? Who are you to deny the spectrum of human sexuality to those who are at a different place on it than you are? Who are you to impose your sexual preferences and identity on others?

    I'm a Christian, not a 'bible thumper'. I literally do not care what anyone else believes. Their beliefs do not affect my Gift! And, clearly, my beliefs don't affect their sinful ways. And that's okay! Everyone was given that choice by God Himself!

    True. Then what is it that you are more conservative than liberal on, in this case? That they are sinful in your eyes does not mean that they do not exist, nor does it mean that there is not a wide spectrum of human sexuality.

    Mike, please step in at any time! I am really trying to be nice here, but Jeff is pushing buttons I would rather he didn;t...

    You brought it up...

    I love you, Jeff, in a totally heterosexual way. But, please...don't... This really is a sensitive subject for me...And religion has no place in this echo.

    It is somewhat sensitive for me as well. And how is it that talk of religion
    is forbidden, but talk of human sexuality through a religious lens is not?

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Monday, March 21, 2022 00:21:11
    If I could tear a page from your book:

    <Squawk!>Blah, blah, blah.<Squawk!>

    I've asked you repeatedly to drop this subject. I categorically refuse to discuss this any longer. Assume what you will of that.

    Good day, sir.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 07:25:50
    Hello Björn,

    How much does it cost to fill it up nowadays?

    Probably still less than 1% the cost of switching to electric?

    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?

    Far less than the cost of a battery repair/service, I'm sure.

    How much have they told you that such an operation will cost, and after
    how many miles, and at what level of battery degradation it will be necessary?

    And also compared to how many miles an ICE engine will run until it needs to be replaced. The cost of that? Not worth it, just scrap the entire
    car, no? Since you are *sure*

    How come you do not want to admit to how much your old ICE car actually
    costs you every year? Have you even kept track of it.

    My advice is: don't! I did a few years ago, and I changed my entire life after that... ;)

    I've done the math.
    But I will not spoil the fun for others to find out on their own.

    I did show Shaun a cost comparison for mileage between gas and EV.
    Those results should be shocking enough.

    --Lee

    --
    If it's not an iPhone, it's not an iPhone

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 07:25:57
    Hello Shaun,

    If the cost of buying the car is all you care about, you obviously
    missed the best selling car in China, the Wuling miniEV, starting
    just
    under $5,000.

    Which goes all of 35 kph and has a range of about 50 km? You get what you pay
    for, there.

    For the record, that's an exaggeration of both top speed and range. I think
    it's closer to 80 kph and 150 km...There are some cheap-as-a-$5-hooker EVs coming out of China that aren't worth buying...Wuling sits at the top of that
    list.

    Two of my friends had a Yugo. The USA bombed the factory in Yugoslavia,
    putting an end to that car product. It got really hard for my friends
    to get parts for their cars after that.

    Once EVs become common, gasoline-powered cars will become dinosaurs.
    And the prices for those cars will drop like a rock. Especially used
    gasoline cars, as people go with EVs.

    --Lee

    --
    It Ain't Payday If It Ain't Nuts In Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 07:26:04
    Hello Björn,

    Dood! Don't insult our respective intelligence! Not cool!

    Dude! I'd never do that, and I think you that.

    If ever I made a performance comparison before Lee's Texas Massacre, surely
    you know that it was in a completely different ball game. No? ;) (no copyright violated?)

    The Texas Chainsaw Massacre will never be duplicated.
    But what a great movie. The actors making it seem so real.
    Or maybe it was real and nobody realized it until too late ...

    --Lee

    --
    When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 07:26:27
    Hello Shaun,

    I doubt many people would want to wait until they are totally out of
    juice before tanking up. Going from half a tank, or from a quarter
    tank,
    is more likely. And then, not to "full" but rather to between 80% and
    90%.

    Isn't that a minus for EVs, though? A gas tank has none of these restrictions.

    It harms the battery trying to top it off to 100%. Better to settle
    for 80%.

    I mean, it's not really good for the pumps and filters to completely drain the tank, but there's no need to keep that tank in the 'butter zone'.

    Most people do not wait until their cars are almost empty to fill
    it up. Too little gas in a car can lead to condensation problems.

    It won't harm it to fill it up to the point gas is spilling out, and there's
    no major, long-term harm in draining it completely.

    Tanking up a car with gas is not a problem. Leaving it on empty
    or close to empty can cause problems with condensation.

    The same can't be said for any lithium-tech battery.

    Batteries use electricity as their "fuel". Batteries are not meant
    or designed to be recharged to 100%. Although running out of "fuel"
    is not recommended, the same result happens with both kinds.

    Not to mention, if one is strictly adhering to the 25%-80% region, one is basically giving up roughly 1/4 of the total range...and range is already a
    problem!

    Depends how often you tank it up. Let's do a comparison to find the
    average range of both gas and electric vehicles -

    EPA calculation for gasoline - fuel-economy rating of 25.7 mpg
    driving 100 miles = 3.9 gallons of gas

    EPA calculation for electricity - EV car travel of 33.7 kilowatt
    hours (kWh) of charge (amout of electricity equivalent to in a
    gallon of regular gasoline). Average mpg for EV (2022) is about
    97. So driving 100 miles = 34.7 kWh of electricity.

    That is 3.9 gallons of gas relative to price of 34.7 kWh over time.

    Do the math. The cost of driving an EV is far less than the cost
    of driving a gasoline-powered car.

    Just think of the money one can save driving an EV.

    Gas = 25.7 miles per gallon
    EV = 34.7 kWh for driving 100 miles

    Even just considering the material cost, ignoring labour or
    permits,
    would
    still be over $1600, at least in my situation. I'd have to have
    a cus
    circuit built to handle that much wattage.

    I would go the "premium" route, even if the cost is a bit more than
    my cited estimate.

    Well, I'll do the same, as long as *you* pay for it! (o_-)

    Taxpayer supported EV fuel. I'm all for that. Not sure about PM Trudeau,
    or President Biden. But it sure would help their poll numbers.

    And, I daresay the batteries would *not* be full after a cup of
    coffe
    but
    maybe I just drink mine faster...I've seen people take an hour
    to dri
    single cup, but I wasn't aware that they were waiting for their
    car t
    charge...

    By "full" I was meaning about 80 percent, topping off to 100 percent
    is not practical or even desirable. Okay, I might grab a donut to go
    with the cup of coffee. But still ...

    "But still" my butt.

    It is still an emerging technoligy, still in its infancy. Just think
    of what it will be like when it matures. :)

    You can't change the story that much and still have a valid point.

    Bottom line is the vast majority of consumers will go with price.
    When the cost meets their budget, EV will be the most popular product
    for those wanting to buy a new car. And then all those old gasoline
    powered clunkers can finally be put out to pasture.

    "The sky is purple...What I meant is that it's *rarely* purple, and only under certain conditions. But still..." (o_O)

    America the beautiful ... with purple skies and amber waves of grain.

    Why does everybody still think the sky is blue?

    --Lee

    --
    If we don't get it / Shut it down!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 01:30:25
    on *20.03.22* at *7:36:32* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    I did a little research today on "affordable" EV cars. The Nissan Leaf
    seems the cheapest starting just under $30,000.

    If the cost of buying the car is all you care about, you obviously missed the best selling car in China, the Wuling miniEV, starting just under $5,000.

    I was kind of really only interested in cars that might be for sale here. What they have in China is of zero interest to me. Besides, at that price, I picture something with the relibility of a Yugo.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 01:36:19
    on *20.03.22* at *7:38:48* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    I'll just hang on to my '98 Honda, for which I can easily find gas.

    How much does it cost to fill it up nowadays?

    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?

    Last year I had to buy a new battery for it (about $35). The year before that, I changed the oil ($50).

    It holds 15 gallons, I think. Since gas is just under $4 now, that would be $60 to fill it from empty (or, if we take Lee's suggestion of limiting the range by filling it when it gets to a half tank and only filling it to 80% of a tank, it would be $18.


    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 01:44:34
    on *20.03.22* at *10:14:57* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Lee Lofaso* about *"Tesla FSD"*.

    This was in Texas. When vehicles meet head-on in the middle of the night
    in Texas, people die. Even a kid could do it. As demonstrated.

    Not this kid, ms. FSD. She is a 13yo driver, who, just like that Texas kid, still is a long time from getting her driver's licence.

    But she's learning from the experience by her (ATM) 60,000 siblings. And, unlike your average teenage new learner, she's already far more experienced, and she improves every second of 24/7 driving by all her 60k siblings. Plus of course, she never gets tired, no matter how long she drives.

    You really should Google "Tesla FSD", a robot option you can get from only one car company for decades to come. Unless of course the other sleepers admit to their failure and license the FSD robot.

    Welcome to the future...

    Is that the system that, in addition to the cost of the Tesla car, you have to pay a monthly subscription fee to use. I heard the price of the subscription just went up, and is going to go up again.

    Is that the cost-effective option you suggest that I get to replace my Honda?

    Sorry, but I'm not a member of the wealthy elite.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 01:53:08
    on *20.03.22* at *11:26:26* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    That still assumes that you have a garage or covered car park. Most
    apartment dwellers won't be able to do that, nor will many who are
    cursed to live in a city.

    And how many apartment houses are there, with less than some 10km away from the city centre, where you live?

    Close your eyes for a moment, and imagine this scenario:

    A sales person comes up to your door and offers to install a tap in your garage that will deliver an unlimited amount of gas to you car, delivered from a non-profit company, that will only charge you the actual cost for production and delivery (ATM it's around $8/brl all over the world, believe it or not).

    What would you be willing to pay for that installation?

    If she tells you, that if you agree to an upgrade of your car, you can enjoy taps at an increasing amount of your supermarkets, city centres, workplaces as well as gas stations all along your road net.

    What would you be willing to pay for that update?

    Since most homes are single family dwellings, while apartment buildings, by definition, are multi-family, I would say that there are far more people living in apartments in my area than do in houses. In the nearby city, the downtown in nearly 100% apartments, and they would have farther to drive to a charging station than I do.

    If someone came to my door selling the snakeoil, I'd simply ask how many charging stations were within 20 miles of where we were standing.

    And if you think the electric company provides power at no profit, you are delusional. I don't know what it costs to get a full charge at a charging station, since all of the other liabilities have removed it as a consideration.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 01:56:29
    on *20.03.22* at *11:26:26* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    A sales person comes up to your door and offers to install a tap in your garage that will deliver an unlimited amount of gas to you car, delivered from a non-profit company, that will only charge you the actual cost for production and delivery (ATM it's around $8/brl all over the world, believe it or not).

    And since you seem to refuse to understand, I'll tell you again, I DON'T HAVE A GARAGE!

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 02:03:05
    on *20.03.22* at *14:28:54* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Shaun Buzza* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    And also compared to how many miles an ICE engine will run until it needs to be replaced. The cost of that? Not worth it, just scrap the entire car, no? Since you are sure

    How come you do not want to admit to how much your old ICE car
    actually costs you every year? Have you even kept track of it.

    A used engine will cost around $800 with a warranty. A rebuilt engine will cost close to $2000. I don't know if the car makers even sell crate engines anymore.
    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 02:26:26
    on *21.03.22* at *0:55:24* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Jeff Thiele* about *"Re: Feelings-based belief"*.

    I love you, Jeff, in a totally heterosexual way.

    Did you just assume his gender?

    :)

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Ron L.@1:120/616 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 08:54:09
    Shaun Buzza wrote to Dr. What <=-

    No, sir. It is hydrogen that is 'explosive'. Except it isn't; it's just extremely flammable. A hydrogen 'explosion' cannot be compared to that
    of ANFO or dynamite.

    Whether it's "explosive" as in "can blow some fingers off" or "will blow you into little pieces", it's still dangerous.

    That makes perfect nonsense, which is what I would expect from anyone working for the government. (o_-)

    It was perfect nonsense and my dad dealt with and fought against it for years to no avail. Hence the experiment to manually dispose of it.

    Yep. As the old saying goes, "Curiosity killed the kid!" Or was that...cat?

    About the same at that age. It's a wonder I made it through high school.


    ... I'm easy to please as long as I get my way.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/09/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (1:120/616)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Monday, March 21, 2022 14:10:48
    Is that the system that, in addition to the cost of the Tesla car, you have to pay a monthly subscription fee to use.

    No. Either you buy it or you rent it.



    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jeff Thiele on Monday, March 21, 2022 14:39:26
    Hello Jeff,

    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion.
    Perhaps bor
    abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the
    othe
    fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think
    not.

    Fully functioning, maybe not, but hermaphrodites do
    natural

    Come on, man! Don't be a Jeff (or a Ron, since I don't want
    to o
    Jeffie). When I said 'no human is born with two sets of sex
    orga
    functionality was very much implied!

    So if someone is born with one set, but that one set is not
    fully
    functional, they are of no gender? If ou can ignore a
    non-fully-functional set when there's more than one set, it
    seems lik
    you should ignore that same non-fully-functional set when there
    is on
    the one set.

    Um...yes? Both are genetic abberations. And neither can effectively
    procreate.

    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Don't be silly. There are five sexes of man. Everybody knows that.
    In case you (and others) don't, here they are -

    * male
    * female
    * pseudo-hermaphrodite
    * true hermaphrodite
    * eunuch

    What you are doing is confusing gender identity with sexual
    orientation. Everybody has a gender identity, hence five sexes
    of man. However, all five sexes of man have different sexual
    orientations. You see, sexual orientation has to do with who
    you are attracted to. Regardless of what sex you might be.

    You also seem to have forgotten about transgender people.
    Like non-transgender people, transgender people can have any
    sexual orientation.Just like anybody else.

    People sometimes confuse being transgender and being intersex.

    Being transgender has to do with your internal knowledge of
    your gender identity. That is why it is so important to know
    who (and what) you are.

    That might explain why a Louisiana lawmaker filed a "Don't Say Gay"
    bill (HB 837) that would ban discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity for students from kindergarten through eighth grade.

    "I talked to some educators. They are not equipped, nor do they want
    to deal with these types of issues that belong in the home."
    ~ Rep. Dodie Horton (R-Hauhton)

    So. There you go. Politicians in Florida and Louisiana want to let
    everybody know that parents are the problem.

    Maybe that is why the world is so confused. With no direction from
    parents, and teachers not equipped or able to teach children what they
    should already know, it is best to keep everybody in the dark.

    Clearly, this is a subject that we are not going to agree on. In this
    case, I *do* believe in a 'black-and-white' definition. You're either
    man or woman. Or genetic abberation, a different topic entirely.

    I think you're already agreeing more than you intended to.

    As explained, it is not as simple as black and white.

    Not to mention the many times that the Good Book says 'Thou shalt not
    lie
    with another man, and neither shall a woman lie with another woman.'
    (except in porn...that's kinda hot! -McD)

    Not everyone subscribes to the Bible, and of those that do, not everyone gives the laws of the Old Testament the same authority as the New, especially
    in terms of bacon and shrimp. Or bacon-wrapped shrimp. Yow.

    Leviticus. Part of the Torah. Not okay for men to be with men.
    But is okay for women to be with women. Jesus reminded a group
    of men who were about to stone a woman about that while drawing
    pictures in the sand. Most of them got the picture, and walked
    away. Then Jesus finished drawing the picture, and that settled
    the matter.

    And then he told the woman "Do not do that again."

    A Jewish rabbi explained to me the reasons why. It really had
    nothing to do with religion, but rather what women really want.

    Like I have often reminded you, I am liberal on some things, and
    conservative on others. In this case, I am...conservative? Liberal?
    <o_O? Sometimes, I don't even know which is which!

    Indeed, you sound a bit confused.

    Aren't we all? And yet so many refuse to even try to know themselves.

    If you don't want to violate your God's laws, then don't violate your God's
    laws. It's as simple as that. What makes you think that you've been put on this Earth to impose your God's laws on others?

    Because I am He. With google, we have all become our own experts.
    On every subject in both the known and unknown universe(s).

    But nobody wants to admit it.

    Except, I know which side of the line you've placed yourself. And in
    this
    case, I fully disagree with you.

    Not so much as you might think. We're up to 3 genders.

    You are soooooo confused. :)

    --Lee

    --
    Drive One

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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Lee Lofaso on Monday, March 21, 2022 09:15:37
    On 21 Mar 2022, Lee Lofaso said the following...
    So if someone is born with one set, but that one set is not
    fully
    functional, they are of no gender? If ou can ignore a
    non-fully-functional set when there's more than one set, it
    seems lik
    you should ignore that same non-fully-functional set when there
    is on
    the one set.

    Um...yes? Both are genetic abberations. And neither can effectively
    procreate.

    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Don't be silly. There are five sexes of man. Everybody knows that.
    In case you (and others) don't, here they are -

    The 3 wasn't intended to be a comprehensive list; it was simply a set of 3
    on which we could agree, 3 being one more than the 2 which were previously stated as constituting the comprehensive list.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Monday, March 21, 2022 15:32:17
    Hello Al,

    I'll just hang on to my '98 Honda, for which I can easily find gas.

    How much does it cost to fill it up nowadays?

    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?

    Last year I had to buy a new battery for it (about $35). The year before that, I changed the oil ($50).

    It holds 15 gallons, I think. Since gas is just under $4 now, that would be
    $60 to fill it from empty (or, if we take Lee's suggestion of limiting the range by filling it when it gets to a half tank and only filling it to 80% of a tank, it would be $18.

    15 gallons at $4/gallon = $60
    Miles per gallon = 25.7
    Total number of miles on 15 gallons of gas = 385.5
    Cost per mile = $0.15

    Average miles per gallon equivalent for EVs = 97
    Driving 100 miles = 34.7 kWh
    Cost per mile = 0.347 kWh

    In Louisiana, the cost of kWh = $0.09/kWh.
    The average cost in USA is $0.12 (still much cheaper than gas).
    That is about $8.73 for 385.5 miles for EV.
    Compared to $60 for gas, and even more for diesel, a real steal.

    And at $5 per gallon for gas, it pays even more to go electric.
    So what is there not to like?

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Al Thompson on Monday, March 21, 2022 10:59:24
    I love you, Jeff, in a totally heterosexual way.

    Did you just assume his gender?

    :)

    *facepalm*

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 11:04:43
    Is that the system that, in addition to the cost of the Tesla car, yo have to pay a monthly subscription fee to use.

    No. Either you buy it or you rent it.

    Um...?

    'monthly subscription fee'...'rent'...isn't that the exact same? (o_O)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 16:41:25
    'monthly subscription fee'...'rent'...isn't that the exact same? (o_O)

    I guess that, if you think that a monthly subscription fee to Netflix is the exact same as renting Netflix, you may have a semantic point. (0_-)



    ..

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 11:54:26
    'monthly subscription fee'...'rent'...isn't that the exact same? (o_O

    I guess that, if you think that a monthly subscription fee to Netflix is the exact same as renting Netflix, you may have a semantic point.
    (0_-)

    That's another bottle you owe me! Keep it up, and I'm gonna have to sue you! (0_-)

    And, um, yeah. It *is* the same as renting Netflix. You are paying by the
    month to make use of something that does not belong to you. 'Leasing' a car
    is also exactly the same as renting it, though probably cheaper than going to
    a 'car rental'.

    It's not semantic, you're being pedantic! (^_^)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 18:36:37
    It's not semantic, you're being pedantic! (^_^)

    Probably. But then you probably know what they say about us Germanic people. It's probably something in our genes... (-_o)

    Was that the third bottle of Abolut Vodka I owe you now? All available for pick-up at an airport nearby ESGP (one click away from my home).



    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Monday, March 21, 2022 19:26:49
    I was kind of really only interested in cars that might be for sale
    here. What they have in China is of zero interest to me. Besides, at that price, I picture something with the relibility of a Yugo.

    So you don't know that the Wuling miniEV was the best selling *GM* EV car in the world? While GM at home managed to sell 26 (yes not millions, not thousands, but single) cars in Q4 2021?

    If it isn't for sale in North America, maybe it has something to do with that Stable Genius and his crazy trade war, that prevented GM from not only importing their China made luxury cars like Buick, Chevrolet and Cadillac vehicles (you didn't know that all of them were made in China?) but also not the most popular cars. A dirt cheap electric city car vs. a F-150 gas guzzling monster? What are the odds?

    Sigh...


    ..

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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 21, 2022 16:32:08
    It's not semantic, you're being pedantic! (^_^)

    Probably. But then you probably know what they say about us Germanic people. It's probably something in our genes... (-_o)

    Was that the third bottle of Abolut Vodka I owe you now? All
    available for pick-up at an airport nearby ESGP (one click away from my home).

    Yep, that's three! But I'd prefer something with a bit more flavour than
    vodka, if you can find it. Maybe a fruit brandy? (o_O)

    Also, when you get to five, I'll throw in a new one for your use! (^_^)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Monday, March 21, 2022 16:24:00
    So if someone is born with one set, but that one set is not fully functional, they are of no gender? If ou can ignore a non-fully-functional set when there's more than one set, it seems like you should ignore that same non-fully-functional set when there is only the one set.

    True.

    Also, genitalia are not the be-all-end-all of human sexuality. Human sexuality is a spectrum that often defies simple classification.

    Yes, but acceptance of this involves someone's feelings more than
    acceptance of biological science, which is something only right-leaning
    persons do, right?


    * SLMR 2.1a * O'Brian's Law... Murphy is an optimist.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to SHAUN BUZZA on Monday, March 21, 2022 16:41:00
    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Incorrect. Male, female, and 'non-human'. Non-human is not a gender.
    Please, I'm begging you, don't! I really don't like talking about this!

    Calling them "non-human" means you are losing me here. They are human but
    not able to pro-create. For the purpose of creative-activity, they are non-gendered. Since it was not their choice, that means that either
    science, nature, or God decided they should be that way.

    Not everyone subscribes to POLITICS, either. What's your point?
    Speaking as a Christian, I really need to try bacon-wrapped shrimp, ASAP!

    Yes, you do indeed. I am trying to remember some other bacon-wrapped snack that I had some of at a pot luck before the pandemic, but I cannot remember what it was now!

    Mike needs to put a stop to this conversation! Religion is supposed to be taboo!

    # You can discuss religion in here but no proselytizing (see the next
    policy).

    # No personal attacks against one's person, their family, or their beliefs.
    This goes with the policy above.

    In the realm of how it influences one's politics, it is not taboo. So, "I
    don't believe in 'X' because it goes against my religious beliefs," that is completely OK. It is also OK for someone to question that stance. Now, if
    you were to start posting about how "we all need to convert to 'X' religion because 'Y,'" that crosses over into taboo behavior. So does "You are a
    dummy if you do/don't believe in 'X' religion's beliefs!" So, if you
    question someone's religion-based political stance, you cannot call them
    names or insult their intelligence.

    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and not answer
    any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitive topic for you,
    you should probably ignore him when it comes to this topic.


    * SLMR 2.1a * He's a few holes short of a whiffle ball.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to AL THOMPSON on Monday, March 21, 2022 16:57:00
    I love you, Jeff, in a totally heterosexual way.

    Did you just assume his gender?

    Yeah, Jeff might identify as a house plant, or as a human male attracted to house plants. Who are we to assume... or judge?!?! :O :D


    * SLMR 2.1a * Alpha testers do it first!
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to RON L. on Monday, March 21, 2022 16:58:00
    Whether it's "explosive" as in "can blow some fingers off" or "will blow you into little pieces", it's still dangerous.

    Yes, I would prefer to keep my fingers attached, thank you very much!


    * SLMR 2.1a * Old Moderator: Burned out shell of a computer hobbyist.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Monday, March 21, 2022 17:46:13
    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and not
    answer any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitive topic for you, you should probably ignore him when it comes to this topic.

    This is what I will do.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Monday, March 21, 2022 17:11:57
    On 21 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    So if someone is born with one set, but that one set is not fully functi they are of no gender? If ou can ignore a non-fully-functional set when there's more than one set, it seems like you should ignore that same non-fully-functional set when there is only the one set.

    True.

    Also, genitalia are not the be-all-end-all of human sexuality. Human sexuality is a spectrum that often defies simple classification.

    Yes, but acceptance of this involves someone's feelings more than acceptance of biological science, which is something only right-leaning persons do, right?

    One person's refusal to accept reality has absolutely no bearing on reality itself. It's rather widely established that human sexuality is a spectrum and is not limited to heterosexuality for the purpose of procreation.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 23:31:50
    Hello Shaun,

    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps born with a
    geneti
    abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the other. But
    born wit
    fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    Fully functioning, maybe not, but hermaphrodites do naturally occur.

    Come on, man! Don't be a Jeff (or a Ron, since I don't want to offend Jeffie). When I said 'no human is born with two sets of sex organs', functionality was very much implied!

    There are five sexes of man -
    * male
    * female
    * pseudo-hermaphrodite
    * true hermaphrodite
    * eunuch

    All are fully functional, each in their own way.

    Hermaphrodism is exactly what I said: a genetic abberation.

    You know nothing.

    Same as in marijuana, same as in fruit flies. Too many X's, or not enough Y's, depending on which particular plant/animal (plantimal?).

    You know nothing about biology, and even less about genetics.

    And that's the bigger problem. "How dare you assume my gender!
    These are
    tits, they're 'breasticles'!" [insert 'triggered' meme here]

    I did say 'don't get me started', didn't I? Why the F didn't you
    listen?
    (Q_Q)

    I think we were already started into it. :)

    I really do try to avoid this subject, Mike.

    Every human starts out having the same chomosomes as females.
    Does that make you a female?

    As a Christian, I have some pretty strong feelings about it (along with 'gender preference' in sex).

    First God created Adam. And then, from Adam's rib, God created female.
    And yet which came first - the chicken or the egg?

    It's not like I *want* to piss everyone off, and I'm already pissing plenty
    of people off without even mentioning this! (o_O)

    You see all those fashion models on runways and on television?
    Most of them are pseudo-hermaphrodites (with XY chromosomes) but
    with female anatomy. Some are declared female at birth, others
    as males. Almost all are raised as girls, and identify as girls.
    But technically, having XY chomosomes, they are male.

    --Lee

    --
    As Good As It Looks

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 23:31:55
    Hello Shaun,

    If a guy wants to wear a dress or a woman a suit, what's it to me?
    Absol
    nothing. If a trans woman wants to be addressed using feminine
    pronouns,
    trans male using masculine pronouns, what's it to me? Absolutely
    nothing

    I really don't care, either, but I am basing that opinion on feelings
    and
    the belief that they are free to do what they want. My opinion here
    is
    completely without basis in biology, logic, or even politics or
    religion.
    I am willing to admit this. If I were a left-leaning person, based
    on my
    interactions with such people, I am guessing I would never be willing
    to
    admit this.

    Well said, and exactly how I feel, about this and many other topics. Let each
    person choose for themself how they wish to live. In smaller terms, I am pro-choice...Lee...(o_O)

    There is a difference between being transgender and being gender non-conforming. In either case, one should always be pro-life.
    Or rather whole life, from the moment of natural conception to
    the moment of natural death. That includes everything in between.

    But, again, this isn't restricted to either side of the coin. There are just
    as many close-minded conservatives as there are liberals. This is one reason
    why I am...both? Neither? Not sure which of these apply...

    And you cannot be both. Have to pick a side. Otherwise you have
    no authority to base your claim on. It would be an "anything goes"
    mentality, with no ethics or morals for anybody.

    If the family is the structural foundation of society, anything
    other than pro-life (or whole life) is a deterioration of that
    foundation.

    --Lee

    --
    Often Licked, Never Beaten

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 23:32:01
    Hello Shaun,

    Some people can be born with both.

    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps born with a genetic abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the other. But born with a
    fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    One fully developed testes and one fully developed ovary.
    That is the definition of true hermaphrodite.

    I have personally met *two* true hermaphrodites (that I know of).
    One was 14 years old at the time, and was a student of a school
    teacher I was with. She (the student) offered to show me, but I
    took her word for it (her classmates swore it was true). At the
    time, she was wearing a blue skirt, and it would have been very
    easy for her to do, but would obviously have gotten me into a
    world of trouble.

    A few years later, when she was 21 years old, I saw her being
    interviewed on television, on the Today Show, by Bryant Gumball.
    This was during the First Gulf War, and she was very pregnant.
    The problem she had was not being able to get married to her
    fiancé, a guy in the Navy, as her birth certificate showed
    herself as being male, and she could not get it changed to
    female. So not only did she become the world's first pregnant
    man, but she also became the world's first male to have given
    birth (she was due any moment at the time of her interview).

    The other true hermaphrodite I have met is the mother of three
    and the father of one. Her husband divorced her after she got
    pregnant with her third child, even though she did it to herself
    by accident. The judge ruled in his favor, basing his ruling
    on his employment, working offshore 21 and 7. This was before
    blood tests became available to prove paternity. At the time
    I met her, she was living alone with her three chidren in a
    trailer, with no prospects for a new mate ...

    Biology and physiology can be ignored by some when the science of
    "feelingsology" contradicts them. In this particular case, those
    "some"
    are not on the political right.

    And that's the bigger problem. "How dare you assume my gender! These aren't
    tits, they're 'breasticles'!" [insert 'triggered' meme here]

    Like non-transgender people, transgender people can have any
    sexual orientation ...

    I did say 'don't get me started', didn't I? Why the F didn't you listen? (Q_Q)

    People sometimes confuse being transgender and being intersex ...

    --Lee

    --
    Impossible is nothing

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Mike Powell on Monday, March 21, 2022 23:32:07
    Hello Mike,

    Some people can be born with both.

    Erm, I'm willing to challenge that assertion. Perhaps born with a genetic
    abberation that makes one set appear to resemble the other. But born with
    a
    fully functional pair of ovaries AND testes? I think not.

    Fully functioning, maybe not, but hermaphrodites do naturally occur.

    Pseudo-hermaphrodites usually have one functioning and the other
    undeveloped. Although both might be undeveloped. True hermaphrodites
    have both male and female functional, although only one testes and
    one ovary.

    But you are still confusing gender identity and sexual orientation.
    The two are not one and the same.

    Biology and physiology can be ignored by some when the science of
    "feelingsology" contradicts them. In this particular case, those
    "some"
    are not on the political right.

    And that's the bigger problem. "How dare you assume my gender! These
    aren't
    tits, they're 'breasticles'!" [insert 'triggered' meme here]

    I did say 'don't get me started', didn't I? Why the F didn't you
    listen? (Q_Q)

    I think we were already started into it. :)

    Everybody has a gender identity. And regardless of who they are,
    each person can have any sexual orientation they want.

    --Lee

    --
    In solidarity - RIP George Floyd - Black Lives Matter

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Shaun Buzza on Monday, March 21, 2022 23:33:47
    Hello Shaun,

    Um...yes? Both are genetic abberations. And neither can
    effectively
    procreate.

    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Incorrect. Male, female, and 'non-human'. Non-human is not a gender. Please, I'm begging you, don't! I really don't like talking about this!

    Why not? We are all human, regardless of our own gender identity
    and sexual orientation.

    Clearly, this is a subject that we are not going to agree on. In
    this
    case, I *do* believe in a 'black-and-white' definition. You're
    either
    man or woman. Or genetic abberation, a different topic entirely.

    I think you're already agreeing more than you intended to.

    I think you're an a-hole. Neither of us is correct. (o_-)

    Be careful. Back in 1995 one sysop threatened to sue another
    sysop for calling him an asshole. Wrote a letter to the editor
    of the Fidonews so that all could read it.

    Not to mention the many times that the Good Book says 'Thou
    shalt not
    with another man, and neither shall a woman lie with another
    woman.'
    (except in porn...that's kinda hot! -McD)

    Not everyone subscribes to the Bible, and of those that do, not
    everyone
    gives the laws of the Old Testament the same authority as the New,
    especially in terms of bacon and shrimp. Or bacon-wrapped shrimp.
    Yow.

    Not everyone subscribes to POLITICS, either. What's your point?
    Speaking as a Christian, I really need to try bacon-wrapped shrimp, ASAP!

    Jesus was not Christian. His father was not Christian. His mother
    was not Christian. His closest friends and followers were not Christian.
    There is no evidence to support claims he traveled anywhere outside
    the land of Palestine. It is doubtful he could read or write. Nobody
    knows who wrote the gospel accounts, as not many people in his day
    could write. There is much to question what he said or taught.

    All we really have are stories. That may or may not be true. So what
    is a Christian? Who are those who call themselves Christian?

    I do not doubt there was a holy person, or man of religious faith,
    known as Jesus. More has been written about that one person than
    others we think we know a lot about. Such as Napoleon Bonaparte and
    other historical figures. We have no idea what Christopher Columbus
    looked like, much less where he was from. All we really do know
    about him is he was raised as a child by a couple in Genoa. How he
    got there, or who brought him there, remains unanswered.

    You're either athiest, or agnostic, aren't you?

    One must doubt to believe. Otherwise there can be no faith.

    Did Jesus believe in God? He knew he was God. At least, that
    was his claim. Whether others believed, or did not believe, was
    up to them.

    If I know I'm nuts, I can't be nuts.
    If I know I'm not, I must be nuts.
    If I think I'm nuts, I might be nuts.

    Sometimes I feel like a nut.
    Sometimes I don't.
    Depending on time of day.

    You literally have no idea where Judaism ends and Christianity begins.

    Jesus was Jewish. As was his mother. And father. And family.
    And friends. And followers. None of them started a new religion.
    Nor did they want to. So what do we have today? A false religion?
    Whatever it is, it isn't what Jesus had in mind.

    Please restrict yourself to topics you actually know about in the future, just as I do.

    By profession, I am a musician. That includes liturgical musician.

    Mike needs to put a stop to this conversation! Religion is supposed to be taboo!

    Politics was very much an issue in the land of Palestine.
    Even in the days of Jesus. Do remember what he called the
    religious leaders of his day - a "brood of vipers". Among
    other things. What existed was a theocratic state, under
    Roman occupation. Everything was political.

    But...until then...

    No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Everything in life is politics.

    Like I have often reminded you, I am liberal on some things, and
    conservative on others. In this case, I am...conservative?
    Liberal?
    <o_O? Sometimes, I don't even know which is which!

    Indeed, you sound a bit confused. If you don't want to violate your
    God's
    laws, then don't violate your God's laws. It's as simple as that.
    What
    makes you think that you've been put on this Earth to impose your
    God's
    laws on others?

    Have I done so? Even when abortion came up, did I do so? I think not, but please correct me.

    Claiming to be pro-life when you clearly are not is something I have
    already corrected you on.

    I'm a Christian, not a 'bible thumper'.

    You don't even know what a Christian is, or is supposed to be.

    I literally do not care what anyone else believes.

    Vladimir Putin claims to be a Christian. He might even honestly
    believe he is a Christian. But is he really and truly a Christian?

    Their beliefs do not affect my Gift!

    Adolf Hitler was a lifelong Catholic, and was never excommunicated
    by the RCC. Not many Jews accepted his rule as being legitimate ...

    Vladimir Putin is a lifelong Orthodox ... not many Ukrainians accept
    his rule as being legitimate ...

    And, clearly, my beliefs don't affect their sinful ways.

    Do you think Hitler gave a rat's cocktail what others thought
    about him? He knew how to handle such folks. Same with Putin.

    And that's okay!

    What you think should make a difference.
    What others think should make a difference.
    But you do not want to make a difference.
    Same as most other folks.

    Everyone was given that choice by God Himself!

    God did not give Ukrainians a choice when Putin came knocking
    on their door.

    Mike, please step in at any time!

    Mike is more than welcome to join in the conversation.

    I am really trying to be nice here, but Jeff is pushing buttons I would rather he didn;t...

    Then learn how to use your <N>ext key.

    I love you, Jeff, in a totally heterosexual way. But, please...don't...

    Please. Try not to get gender identity and sexual orientation confused.
    They are not one and the same.

    This really is a sensitive subject for me...And religion has no place in this echo.

    Judaism was an approved religion in the land of Palestine.

    And you believe the story that Judas Iscariot (a Jew) betrayed
    Jesus (another Jew) with a kiss (on the lips) in front of Roman
    soldiers in a garden late at night. While Peter and others were
    sleeping, missing all that happened.

    Do you know what Jews did when they saw two guys kissing
    (on the lips)? They grabbed stones. And started flinging them
    at the accused.

    But then the story tells us his followers had fallen asleep
    and missed all the action. But when they woke up, Peter picked
    up some old rusty sword and chopped off the ear of one of the
    Roman soldiers.

    Do you know what happens when somebody attacks a Roman soldier?
    Maybe that explains why Jesus, who was under arrest, decided to
    pick up the soldier's ear and put it back on. And tell Peter
    he had been very, very, naughty.

    The only thing that could make sense is if Jesus was a woman.
    Or a true hermaphrodite in drag. After all, some people are born
    with XY chomosomes but have female genitals and secondary sex
    characteristics. And others might have XX chromosomes bu no
    uterus. Or might have external anatomy that doesn't appear male
    or female. India has lots of those type.

    Please? Man to man: let this go, and don't bring it up again. Thank you in advance.

    We all have freedom of speech. In this echo, and elsewhere.
    Feel free to chime in. Or not. Your choice.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jeff Thiele on Monday, March 21, 2022 23:33:55
    Jeff Thiele -> Lee Lofaso has brought this to us :
    On 21 Mar 2022, Lee Lofaso said the following...
    So if someone is born with one set, but that one set is not
    fully
    functional, they are of no gender? If ou can ignore a
    non-fully-functional set when there's more than one set, it
    seems lik
    you should ignore that same non-fully-functional set when
    there
    is on
    the one set.

    Um...yes? Both are genetic abberations. And neither can
    effectively
    procreate.

    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Don't be silly. There are five sexes of man. Everybody knows that.
    In case you (and others) don't, here they are -

    The 3 wasn't intended to be a comprehensive list; it was simply a set of 3 on which we could agree, 3 being one more than the 2 which were previously stated as constituting the comprehensive list.

    Compressed into three groups, it could better be expressed
    as male, female, and intersex. But you are still missing the
    point. Gender identity has to do with your internal knowledge
    of your own gender. Sexual orientation has to do with whom you
    are attracted to.

    You can have any sexual orientation, regardless of gender.
    Doesn't matter if you are male, female, or intersex.

    Transgenders and non-transgenders can have any sexual orientation.
    So what makes others any different? Dr. Frank 'N' Furter was proud
    of being a sweet transvestite from transsexual Transylvania ...

    --Lee

    --
    Nothing sucks like an Electrolux

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Monday, March 21, 2022 18:09:02
    On 21 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Mike needs to put a stop to this conversation! Religion is supposed to b taboo!

    # You can discuss religion in here but no proselytizing (see the next
    policy).

    # No personal attacks against one's person, their family, or their beliefs. This goes with the policy above.

    In the realm of how it influences one's politics, it is not taboo. So, "I don't believe in 'X' because it goes against my religious beliefs," that is completely OK. It is also OK for someone to question that stance. Now, if you were to start posting about how "we all need to convert to
    'X' religion because 'Y,'" that crosses over into taboo behavior. So
    does "You are a dummy if you do/don't believe in 'X' religion's
    beliefs!" So, if you question someone's religion-based political
    stance, you cannot call them names or insult their intelligence.

    No names were called in the making of this thread. In my opinion, the "taboo" problem arises when someone takes any criticism of their religion or
    religious beliefs as proselytization for atheism, which is not the intention
    in my case.

    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and not
    answer any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitive topic for you, you should probably ignore him when it comes to this topic.

    Agreed. However, I stopped replying to the conversation two requests ago.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Monday, March 21, 2022 22:24:13
    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and not answer any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitive top for you, you should probably ignore him when it comes to this topic.

    Agreed. However, I stopped replying to the conversation two requests ago.

    This is true. But it also begs the question, why not the first time? (o_-)

    Thanks; as I said, there are certain things I don't wish to discuss.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jimmy Anderson@1:116/17 to Jeff Thiele on Monday, March 21, 2022 21:32:00
    Jeff Thiele wrote to Mike Powell <=-

    Also, genitalia are not the be-all-end-all of human sexuality. Human sexuality is a spectrum that often defies simple classification.

    Yes, but acceptance of this involves someone's feelings more than acceptance of biological science, which is something only right-leaning persons do, right?

    One person's refusal to accept reality has absolutely no bearing on reality itself. It's rather widely established that human sexuality is
    a spectrum and is not limited to heterosexuality for the purpose of procreation.

    I agree that reality is NOT at the whim of belief. I personally believe
    that God created man and woman in His image. I believe that is a hard
    fact. If I find out I'm wrong one day, then so be it, but it's the
    Truth as I understand it.





    ... More sugar!
    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    * Origin: Omicron Theta (1:116/17)
  • From Jimmy Anderson@1:116/17 to Lee Lofaso on Monday, March 21, 2022 22:01:00
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Shaun Buzza <=-

    Not to mention the many times that the Good Book says 'Thou
    shalt not
    with another man, and neither shall a woman lie with another
    woman.'
    (except in porn...that's kinda hot! -McD)

    Not everyone subscribes to the Bible, and of those that do, not
    everyone
    gives the laws of the Old Testament the same authority as the New,
    especially in terms of bacon and shrimp. Or bacon-wrapped shrimp.
    Yow.

    Sadly, this is very true... Something we've been talking about in
    church lately is people saying, "well, we all sin," as if that's
    a reason in and of itself to excuse whatever you are doing. True
    repentance is to admin, then turn away from it, then STAY turned
    away from it.

    Jesus was not Christian. His father was not Christian. His mother
    was not Christian. His closest friends and followers were not
    Christian.

    LOL - good point. Christian is a term derived later - means Christ-like,
    or to put it more bluntly, to TRY and follow His teachings. WWJD and
    all that.

    But yeah, they were Jews.

    There is no evidence to support claims he traveled anywhere
    outside the land of Palestine. It is doubtful he could read or write. Nobody knows who wrote the gospel accounts, as not many people in his
    day could write. There is much to question what he said or taught.

    Choosing to believe the Word or not is a personal thing. The only
    'evidence' I need I take on faith, and of course it's not up to
    me to 'prove' it to you or anyone else. :-) The Holy Spirit calls
    one to repentance.

    You literally have no idea where Judaism ends and Christianity begins.

    Jesus was Jewish. As was his mother. And father. And family.
    And friends. And followers. None of them started a new religion.
    Nor did they want to. So what do we have today? A false religion?
    Whatever it is, it isn't what Jesus had in mind.

    Well, I personally disagree. :-)

    Indeed, you sound a bit confused. If you don't want to violate your
    God's
    laws, then don't violate your God's laws. It's as simple as that.
    What
    makes you think that you've been put on this Earth to impose your
    God's
    laws on others?

    Have I done so? Even when abortion came up, did I do so? I think not, but please correct me.

    I don't see how being anti-abortion imposes God's laws on others... This country was built on freedom, but also built on Christianity. Abortion
    is murder, which is supposed to be illegal, both God's laws AND the laws
    of this country, but that has been changed.

    Supporting representatives that share your belief is not imposing God's
    law, it's 'imposing' majority rule. Sometimes that is for God's law, and
    most of the time it's against it...

    I still remember when stores closed on Sunday around here. Not any more!

    I'm a Christian, not a 'bible thumper'.

    Bible Thumper - LOL - haven't heard that in a while. I've always seen
    that as a derogotory term. :-)

    You don't even know what a Christian is, or is supposed to be.

    I literally do not care what anyone else believes.

    Amen, brother. I agree mostly. I do care, in the sense that I don't
    want to see anyone face the Wrath, but others don't have to believe
    what I believe.

    I'm reminded of what Morpheus said when Locke said, "not everyone
    believes as you do." He answered, "my beliefs don't require them
    to." :-)

    Vladimir Putin claims to be a Christian. He might even honestly
    believe he is a Christian. But is he really and truly a Christian?

    Could be - not for me to say. Christians can do right or wrong, and
    can be affected by angels or demons...

    Their beliefs do not affect my Gift!

    Again, amen. :-)

    Adolf Hitler was a lifelong Catholic, and was never excommunicated
    by the RCC. Not many Jews accepted his rule as being legitimate ...

    Not every Christian accepts the RCC as 'Christian.'

    God did not give Ukrainians a choice when Putin came knocking
    on their door.

    Are the Ukranians really that much different than Putin?




    ... WWhhaatt ddooeess dduupplleexx mmeeaann??
    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    * Origin: Omicron Theta (1:116/17)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Jimmy Anderson on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 06:27:16
    I personally believe
    that God created man and woman in His image. I believe that is a hard fact.

    You *do* know how crazy the above statement is? Your belief is a hard fact? Based on what facts?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Lee Lofaso on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 02:17:21
    on *21.03.22* at *14:32:17* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    Hello Al,

    I'll just hang on to my '98 Honda, for which I can easily find gas.

    How much does it cost to fill it up nowadays?

    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?

    Last year I had to buy a new battery for it (about $35). The year
    before
    that, I changed the oil ($50).

    It holds 15 gallons, I think. Since gas is just under $4 now, that
    would be
    $60 to fill it from empty (or, if we take Lee's suggestion of limiting
    the range by filling it when it gets to a half tank and only filling it
    to 80% of a tank, it would be $18.

    15 gallons at $4/gallon = $60
    Miles per gallon = 25.7
    Total number of miles on 15 gallons of gas = 385.5 Cost per mile = $0.15

    Average miles per gallon equivalent for EVs = 97 Driving 100 miles = 34.7 kWh
    Cost per mile = 0.347 kWh

    In Louisiana, the cost of kWh = $0.09/kWh. The average cost in USA is $0.12 (still much cheaper than gas). That is about $8.73 for 385.5 miles for EV. Compared to $60 for gas, and even more for diesel, a real steal.

    And at $5 per gallon for gas, it pays even more to go electric. So what
    is there not to like?

    What's not to like? Maybe the fact that there's noplace close to my home to charge it, or the fact that I would have to do a lot of research to see if a longer distance trip was even possible, or if I would have to re-route my trip to be a series of tangential trips to available commercial charging stations, thereby greatly increasing the distance and time it would take to get where I want to go.

    Or, more basically, if it's 10 below, and I need the defroster, heater, headlights, and wipers, can I make it to even the closest city? If the answer is no, or even maybe, then I'm not in the least interested.

    Is your 9 cents/kwh what commercial charging stations charge, or is that only what you pay for your household service?

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 02:21:17
    //Hello Bjoern,//

    on *21.03.22* at *15:41:25* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Shaun Buzza* about *"Tesla FSD"*.

    'monthly subscription fee'...'rent'...isn't that the exact same? (o_O)

    I guess that, if you think that a monthly subscription fee to Netflix is the exact same as renting Netflix, you may have a semantic point.
    (0_-)

    IN a sense, it's the same thing. If you stop paying the fee, you stop getting the service. If the service involved is the full use of your car, then I see that as a downside.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 02:31:06
    on *21.03.22* at *18:26:49* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Al Thompson* about *"The myth about EVs vs. ICE cars"*.

    I was kind of really only interested in cars that might be for sale
    here. What they have in China is of zero interest to me. Besides, at
    that price, I picture something with the relibility of a Yugo.

    So you don't know that the Wuling miniEV was the best selling GM EV
    car in the world? While GM at home managed to sell 26 (yes not millions, not thousands, but single) cars in Q4 2021?

    So, you're suggesting that the best car for an American to buy is one that has a total installed userbase of 26? Which has worse range than even the pitiful Nissan Leaf or more pitiful Mini Cooper?

    I really don't think you understand the objections to EVs.

    If you are obscenely wealthy with a house in a city, where you can have a charger in your garage, and never plan on driving on a trip with a roundtrip distance less than 80% of your total range, then I guess it's a good deal. For real humans, not so much.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Al Thompson@1:229/426.27 to Lee Lofaso on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 02:43:31
    on *21.03.22* at *22:31:50* You wrote in area *POLITICS*
    to *Shaun Buzza* about *"Feelings-based belief"*.

    You see all those fashion models on runways and on television? Most of them are pseudo-hermaphrodites (with XY chromosomes) but with female anatomy. Some are declared female at birth, others as males. Almost all are raised as girls, and identify as girls. But technically, having XY chomosomes, they are male.

    I'm going to need to see your sources for this information, especially since none of them display any secondary male attributes.

    --- WinPoint 400.2
    * Origin: What's the Point (1:229/426.27)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 09:52:09
    Hello Mike,

    Then already you have 3 genders: male, female, and no-gender.

    Incorrect. Male, female, and 'non-human'. Non-human is not a gender.
    Please, I'm begging you, don't! I really don't like talking about this!

    Calling them "non-human" means you are losing me here. They are human but not able to pro-create.

    Whatever gives you that idea? Aside from eunuchs, all other sexes
    of man can procreate.

    Just because their sexual orientation might not be the same as yours
    or mine does not mean they cannot procreate. After all, all one needs
    is the right body parts to do it.

    For the purpose of creative-activity, they are non-gendered.

    Everybody has a gender identity.

    Since it was not their choice, that means that either
    science, nature, or God decided they should be that way.

    We are all God's creatures, whether you like it or not.

    Not everyone subscribes to POLITICS, either. What's your point?
    Speaking as a Christian, I really need to try bacon-wrapped shrimp, ASAP!

    Yes, you do indeed. I am trying to remember some other bacon-wrapped snack
    that I had some of at a pot luck before the pandemic, but I cannot remember
    what it was now!

    Jews and Muslims do not partake of pork products. But Christians do.
    As well as atheists and agnostics. Not that it matters.

    Mike needs to put a stop to this conversation! Religion is supposed to be
    taboo!

    # You can discuss religion in here but no proselytizing (see the next
    policy).

    # No personal attacks against one's person, their family, or their beliefs.
    This goes with the policy above.

    All participants can discuss anything they want. Whether you like it
    or not.

    In the realm of how it influences one's politics, it is not taboo. So, "I don't believe in 'X' because it goes against my religious beliefs," that is
    completely OK. It is also OK for someone to question that stance. Now, if
    you were to start posting about how "we all need to convert to 'X' religion
    because 'Y,'" that crosses over into taboo behavior. So does "You are a dummy if you do/don't believe in 'X' religion's beliefs!" So, if you question someone's religion-based political stance, you cannot call them names or insult their intelligence.

    We are all made up of X and Y chromosomes. Some of us with an XX set,
    and others with an XY set. What happens to those with a YY set, or even
    if they exist, is a total unknown.

    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and not answer any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitive topic for you, you should probably ignore him when it comes to this topic.

    Ignorance is bliss. Especially in the world of the blind.

    --Lee

    --
    If PBS won't do it, who will?

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 09:52:20
    Hello Jeff,

    No names were called in the making of this thread. In my opinion, the "taboo"
    problem arises when someone takes any criticism of their religion or religious beliefs as proselytization for atheism, which is not the intention
    in my case.

    If Mike really believes what he wrote he would condemn the actions
    of Republican legislators who introduce and/or support "Don't Say Gay" legislation.

    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and not
    answer any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitive topic
    for you, you should probably ignore him when it comes to this topic.

    Agreed. However, I stopped replying to the conversation two requests ago.

    Why should debate about "Don't Say Gays" legislation be banned?
    That is clearly all about religion. A ploy by Republicans to appeal
    to the darker nature of Christians to marginalize gays and lesbians.
    Refusal to criticize or debate their position is giving tacit approval
    to what they do.

    --Lee

    --
    If PBS won't do it, who will?

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Jimmy Anderson on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 07:07:06
    On 21 Mar 2022, Jimmy Anderson said the following...
    One person's refusal to accept reality has absolutely no bearing on reality itself. It's rather widely established that human sexuality i a spectrum and is not limited to heterosexuality for the purpose of procreation.

    I agree that reality is NOT at the whim of belief. I personally believe that God created man and woman in His image. I believe that is a hard fact. If I find out I'm wrong one day, then so be it, but it's the
    Truth as I understand it.

    First of all, great! Believe what you want to believe, but understand that others may have different beliefs and your beliefs don't trump theirs simply because you believe yours to be "the Truth."

    Secondly, when talking about gender, doesn't it seem a little absurd to hear yourself saying, "I personally believe that God created man and woman in His image?" How many sets of genitalia do you suppose God has? Why does He even need them? With whom does He procreate (except for that one time, but as far
    as we know no genitalia were involved)? If we use the pronoun "He," do we then assume that He is male,with male genitalia? How, then, did He create women in His image?

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Shaun Buzza on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 07:40:29
    On 21 Mar 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...

    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and answer any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitiv for you, you should probably ignore him when it comes to this to

    Agreed. However, I stopped replying to the conversation two requests

    This is true. But it also begs the question, why not the first time?
    (o_-)

    Honestly, because I thought you were joking. We were having a conversation,
    you brought a thing up, and when I replied to that thing, you flipped out, hard. Exclamation points and everything. It took a little bit to figure out that you were being serious.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jimmy Anderson@1:116/17 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 08:02:00
    Björn Felten wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

    I personally believe
    that God created man and woman in His image. I believe that is a hard fact.

    You *do* know how crazy the above statement is? Your belief is a
    hard fact? Based on what facts?

    "Is?" You're saying it's an incorrect statement?

    I can't prove it with facts, but you also can't disprove it.




    ... Behind every great man is an amazed mother-in-law!
    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    * Origin: Omicron Theta (1:116/17)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Jimmy Anderson on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 08:29:42
    On 22 Mar 2022, Jimmy Anderson said the following...
    I personally believe
    that God created man and woman in His image. I believe that is a hard fact.

    You *do* know how crazy the above statement is? Your belief is a hard fact? Based on what facts?

    "Is?" You're saying it's an incorrect statement?

    I can't prove it with facts, but you also can't disprove it.

    If you can't prove it with facts, then it's not a "hard fact."

    Also, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, and in this case that would be you, Jimmy.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 10:17:57
    Honestly, because I thought you were joking. We were having a conversation, you brought a thing up, and when I replied to that thing, you flipped out, hard. Exclamation points and everything. It took a
    little bit to figure out that you were being serious.

    That's...understandable. I'm usually a very light-hearted guy. My negative emotions were probably heightened by alcohol consumption as well. After
    all, it was Saturday night. But, for the record, it was Mike who first mentioned it, and my first response was:

    Oh, don't even get me started on that subject!

    Meanwhile, you did drop it when you realized what was going on, and you've even 'pseudo'-apologized. I recognize that, and that's why I felt you deserved my thanks.

    Have a good day, Jeff.

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 16:11:13
    Hello Al,

    I'll just hang on to my '98 Honda, for which I can easily find
    gas.

    How much does it cost to fill it up nowadays?

    How much did you spend on repair and service last year?

    Last year I had to buy a new battery for it (about $35). The year
    before
    that, I changed the oil ($50).

    It holds 15 gallons, I think. Since gas is just under $4 now, that
    would be
    $60 to fill it from empty (or, if we take Lee's suggestion of
    limiting
    the range by filling it when it gets to a half tank and only filling
    it
    to 80% of a tank, it would be $18.

    15 gallons at $4/gallon = $60
    Miles per gallon = 25.7
    Total number of miles on 15 gallons of gas = 385.5 Cost per mile =
    $0.15

    Average miles per gallon equivalent for EVs = 97 Driving 100 miles =
    34.7
    kWh
    Cost per mile = 0.347 kWh

    In Louisiana, the cost of kWh = $0.09/kWh. The average cost in USA is
    $0.12 (still much cheaper than gas). That is about $8.73 for 385.5
    miles
    for EV. Compared to $60 for gas, and even more for diesel, a real
    steal.

    And at $5 per gallon for gas, it pays even more to go electric. So
    what
    is there not to like?

    What's not to like? Maybe the fact that there's noplace close to my home to
    charge it, or the fact that I would have to do a lot of research to see if a longer distance trip was even possible, or if I would have to re-route my
    trip to be a series of tangential trips to available commercial charging stations, thereby greatly increasing the distance and time it would take to
    get where I want to go.

    The cost benefits of an EV far outweigh the cost of gas. Once the
    cost of the EVs come down to a realistic price and charging stations
    are prevalent, nobody will be interested in buying gasoline-powered
    cars any more.

    Or, more basically, if it's 10 below, and I need the defroster, heater, headlights, and wipers, can I make it to even the closest city? If the answer is no, or even maybe, then I'm not in the least interested.

    Those who can afford to pay high prices for EVs love them. Once
    the price comes down to a reasonable level for others, more people
    will love them. Especially since more charging stations will then
    be available.

    Is your 9 cents/kwh what commercial charging stations charge, or is that only what you pay for your household service?

    That is the rate utility companies charge for electricity in the
    state of Louisiana. The average cost in the USA is 12 cents/kWh.

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 16:11:19
    Hello Al,

    You see all those fashion models on runways and on television? Most of
    them are pseudo-hermaphrodites (with XY chromosomes) but with female
    anatomy. Some are declared female at birth, others as males. Almost all
    are raised as girls, and identify as girls. But technically, having XY
    chomosomes, they are male.

    I'm going to need to see your sources for this information, especially since
    none of them display any secondary male attributes.

    Males have a pair of XY chromosomes. Females have a pair of XX
    chromosomes. You have no idea of what is under the hood of fashion
    models. As such, you can be forgiven. But I know. And so do fashion
    models. Including those with XY chromosomes.

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jimmy Anderson on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 16:11:26
    Hello Jimmy,

    Also, genitalia are not the be-all-end-all of human sexuality.
    Human
    sexuality is a spectrum that often defies simple classification.

    Yes, but acceptance of this involves someone's feelings more than
    acceptance of biological science, which is something only
    right-leaning
    persons do, right?

    One person's refusal to accept reality has absolutely no bearing on
    reality itself. It's rather widely established that human sexuality
    is
    a spectrum and is not limited to heterosexuality for the purpose of
    procreation.

    I agree that reality is NOT at the whim of belief. I personally believe that God created man and woman in His image. I believe that is a hard fact. If I find out I'm wrong one day, then so be it, but it's the
    Truth as I understand it.

    What does God look like? Have you seen the face of God?
    Please. Tell me. I really want to know. Draw me a picture.
    Or paint me an image of His face. Does He really have a
    beard? Is that dude on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel
    really God Himself? And who says God is a He?

    For all we know, God could be some kind of Holy Cockroach.

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jimmy Anderson on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 19:28:08
    Hello Jimmy,

    Not to mention the many times that the Good Book says 'Thou
    shalt not
    with another man, and neither shall a woman lie with another
    woman.'
    (except in porn...that's kinda hot! -McD)

    Not everyone subscribes to the Bible, and of those that do, not
    everyone
    gives the laws of the Old Testament the same authority as the New,
    especially in terms of bacon and shrimp. Or bacon-wrapped shrimp.
    Yow.

    Sadly, this is very true... Something we've been talking about in
    church lately is people saying, "well, we all sin," as if that's
    a reason in and of itself to excuse whatever you are doing. True repentance is to admin, then turn away from it, then STAY turned
    away from it.

    Jesus was not Christian. His father was not Christian. His mother
    was not Christian. His closest friends and followers were not
    Christian.

    Christian is a term derived later - means Christ-like,
    or to put it more bluntly, to TRY and follow His teachings. WWJD and
    all that.

    His teachings were rejected. By his own people. Jews rarely read
    the New Testament, or even menition his name. It is considered taboo.

    But yeah, they were Jews.

    Two different religions. Jews look backwards to a world that was.
    Christians look forwards to a world they hope might be.

    There is no evidence to support claims he traveled anywhere
    outside the land of Palestine. It is doubtful he could read or write.
    Nobody knows who wrote the gospel accounts, as not many people in his
    day could write. There is much to question what he said or taught.

    Choosing to believe the Word or not is a personal thing. The only 'evidence' I need I take on faith, and of course it's not up to
    me to 'prove' it to you or anyone else. :-) The Holy Spirit calls
    one to repentance.

    To believe is to doubt. And one must doubt to believe. It cannot be
    any other way. Jesus does not believe in God. He knows he is God. At
    least that is what he claimed. Which is why many in his day thought
    he was total bonkers.

    You literally have no idea where Judaism ends and Christianity begins.

    Jesus was Jewish. As was his mother. And father. And family.
    And friends. And followers. None of them started a new religion.
    Nor did they want to. So what do we have today? A false religion?
    Whatever it is, it isn't what Jesus had in mind.

    Well, I personally disagree. :-)

    Like I said, one must doubt to believe.

    Indeed, you sound a bit confused. If you don't want to violate your
    God's
    laws, then don't violate your God's laws. It's as simple as that.
    What
    makes you think that you've been put on this Earth to impose your
    God's
    laws on others?

    Have I done so? Even when abortion came up, did I do so? I think not,
    but
    please correct me.

    I don't see how being anti-abortion imposes God's laws on others... This country was built on freedom, but also built on Christianity. Abortion
    is murder, which is supposed to be illegal, both God's laws AND the laws of this country, but that has been changed.

    There is nothing in Judaism that condemns abortion. Jesus never
    condemned any woman who had an abortion, or considered getting an
    abortion. So why should Christians condemn what Jews do not?

    What are God's laws? A group of men ganged up on a woman fixing
    to stone her. Jesus stopped them in their tracks and challenged
    them, first by drawing a few lines in the sand, then by saying
    "Let the man without sin throw the first stone!" Almost all of
    them dropped their stones and walked away. The few stragglers
    needed a bit more convincing, so Jesus drew a few more lines and
    they all went away after that.

    What did the woman do? She was with another woman. Had she been
    with a man who was not her husband it would have been okay for
    others to stone her. But since she was a woman with another woman,
    then it stands to reason everything was okay. It is all explained
    in the Book of Leviticus, which is part of the Torah.

    A Jewish rabbi explained it to me some time ago. It really wasn't
    so much about religion, but rather what women want.

    Supporting representatives that share your belief is not imposing God's law, it's 'imposing' majority rule. Sometimes that is for God's law, and most of the time it's against it...

    There is also tyranny of the minority, when a small group holds
    the majority hostage. Such as when a group of Republican Senators
    keep a Democratic President's nomination for USSC justice from
    even getting a hearing.

    I still remember when stores closed on Sunday around here. Not any more!

    Blue Laws still exist in some parts. Mostly in the South.

    I'm a Christian, not a 'bible thumper'.

    Bible Thumper - LOL - haven't heard that in a while. I've always seen
    that as a derogotory term. :-)

    Have you ever attended Mass in an RCC church? Every part of the
    Mass (except for one line) is taken directly from the Bible.

    You don't even know what a Christian is, or is supposed to be.

    I literally do not care what anyone else believes.

    Amen, brother. I agree mostly. I do care, in the sense that I don't
    want to see anyone face the Wrath, but others don't have to believe
    what I believe.

    I care very much what others believe. If Vladimir Putin is truly
    a madman, we should all care very much what he believes.

    I'm reminded of what Morpheus said when Locke said, "not everyone
    believes as you do." He answered, "my beliefs don't require them
    to." :-)

    One can take the red pill. Or one can take the blue pill.
    Not sure what happens if one takes both.

    Vladimir Putin claims to be a Christian. He might even honestly
    believe he is a Christian. But is he really and truly a Christian?

    Could be - not for me to say. Christians can do right or wrong, and
    can be affected by angels or demons...

    You do realize angels do not have wings. Just look at the ceiling
    of the Sistine Chapel. None of those angels have any wings. As for
    demons, those are really dragons in disguise ...

    Their beliefs do not affect my Gift!

    Again, amen. :-)

    Gifts are meant for sharing. But nobody wants to share.

    Adolf Hitler was a lifelong Catholic, and was never excommunicated
    by the RCC. Not many Jews accepted his rule as being legitimate ...

    Not every Christian accepts the RCC as 'Christian.'

    There is only one true church. According to the one true church.
    All 40,000+ of them.

    God did not give Ukrainians a choice when Putin came knocking
    on their door.

    Are the Ukranians really that much different than Putin?

    The dead ones are very much different.

    --Lee

    --
    Travel should take you places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 19:28:15
    Hello Jeff,

    One person's refusal to accept reality has absolutely no bearing
    on
    reality itself. It's rather widely established that human
    sexuality i
    a spectrum and is not limited to heterosexuality for the purpose
    of
    procreation.

    I agree that reality is NOT at the whim of belief. I personally
    believe
    that God created man and woman in His image. I believe that is a hard
    fact. If I find out I'm wrong one day, then so be it, but it's the
    Truth as I understand it.

    First of all, great! Believe what you want to believe, but understand that others may have different beliefs and your beliefs don't trump theirs simply
    because you believe yours to be "the Truth."

    Secondly, when talking about gender, doesn't it seem a little absurd to hear
    yourself saying, "I personally believe that God created man and woman in His
    image?" How many sets of genitalia do you suppose God has? Why does He even
    need them? With whom does He procreate (except for that one time, but as far
    as we know no genitalia were involved)? If we use the pronoun "He," do we then
    assume that He is male,with male genitalia? How, then, did He create women in
    His image?

    Don't you get it, man? God is a true hermaphrodite.
    And Jesus was His/Her only begotten Son, born of a Virgin.
    Oh my ...

    May the Goddess bless you,
    --Lee

    --
    In solidarity - RIP George Floyd - Black Lives Matter

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Lee Lofaso on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 13:53:44
    On 22 Mar 2022, Lee Lofaso said the following...
    Secondly, when talking about gender, doesn't it seem a little absurd hear
    yourself saying, "I personally believe that God created man and woman His
    image?" How many sets of genitalia do you suppose God has? Why does H even
    need them? With whom does He procreate (except for that one time, but far
    as we know no genitalia were involved)? If we use the pronoun "He," d then
    assume that He is male,with male genitalia? How, then, did He create in
    His image?

    Don't you get it, man? God is a true hermaphrodite.
    And Jesus was His/Her only begotten Son, born of a Virgin.
    Oh my ...

    That's one possibility. However, it fails the "in His own image" test. If God is a hermaphrodite and we aren't, then clearly we were not made in His image.

    "In his own image" is all well and good while we're talking about arms and
    legs and ears and nostrils, but it definitely falls apart when it comes to genitalia. And tits. Does God have tits? Maybe just one tit, like an Amazon?

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Al Thompson on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 19:56:40
    Last year I had to buy a new battery for it (about $35). The year
    before that, I changed the oil ($50).

    Congratulations. So you obviously scrapped the service book of yours and decided to go all in on driving your car until it's basically worthless?

    How much do you then have lost, once you have to buy a new car?


    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 17:09:00
    Yes, but acceptance of this involves someone's feelings more than acceptance of biological science, which is something only right-leaning persons do, right?

    One person's refusal to accept reality has absolutely no bearing on reality itself. It's rather widely established that human sexuality is a spectrum and is not limited to heterosexuality for the purpose of procreation.

    Widely extablished by the science of feelingsology? I never said it was limited to heterosexuality or procreation, by the way. But someone's
    sexual preference is not their gender nor their sex. So a homosexual man
    is still a man, for gender purposes, just as is a hetero/homo/bi/nonsexual
    man who decides he likes to wear women's clothes.

    Meanwhile, a man who claims his "gender" is being attracted to kids should
    be a man in jail, but he is still a (bad) man.

    <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak>.


    * SLMR 2.1a * If I only had a 486 . . .
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 16:47:00
    No names were called in the making of this thread. In my opinion, the "taboo" problem arises when someone takes any criticism of their religion or religious beliefs as proselytization for atheism, which is not the intention in my case.

    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and not answer any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitive topic for you, you should probably ignore him when it comes to this topic.

    Agreed. However, I stopped replying to the conversation two requests ago.

    Yeah, you all seemed to be conversing a lot in the 24 hours between the
    last time I read anything, so I was no doubt behind. Since I was asked to
    step in I wanted to point out the rules in question and why they had not
    (yet) apparently be broken.

    Good on you both for remaining civil discussing a touchy topic.


    * SLMR 2.1a * I could prove God statistically. - George Gallup
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 16:47:17
    On 22 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Yes, but acceptance of this involves someone's feelings more than acceptance of biological science, which is something only right-lea persons do, right?

    One person's refusal to accept reality has absolutely no bearing on real itself. It's rather widely established that human sexuality is a spectru is not limited to heterosexuality for the purpose of procreation.

    Widely extablished by the science of feelingsology? I never said it was limited to heterosexuality or procreation, by the way. But someone's sexual preference is not their gender nor their sex. So a homosexual man is still a man, for gender purposes, just as is a
    hetero/homo/bi/nonsexual man who decides he likes to wear women's
    clothes.

    Things are not so cut and dry when you consider a person's gender identity, which may differ from your definition of gender.

    Meanwhile, a man who claims his "gender" is being attracted to kids
    should be a man in jail, but he is still a (bad) man.

    Not necessarily. It depends on whether he acts on it or not. And the same for
    a woman who is attracted to kids. You are assuming that he can can control
    his thoughts, which he may not be able to, and those thoughts don't
    necessarily make him "bad." But he should be able to control his actions, or
    he should be removed from society.

    How would you like to be judged by every thought you ever had?

    <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak>.

    How did Ron get in here?

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 16:50:44
    On 22 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    No names were called in the making of this thread. In my opinion, the "t problem arises when someone takes any criticism of their religion or religious beliefs as proselytization for atheism, which is not the inten in my case.

    If it makes you uncomfortable, you can feel free to drop it and not answer any more of Jeff's queries about it. If if it a sensitive t for you, you should probably ignore him when it comes to this topic

    Agreed. However, I stopped replying to the conversation two requests ago

    Yeah, you all seemed to be conversing a lot in the 24 hours between the last time I read anything, so I was no doubt behind. Since I was asked
    to step in I wanted to point out the rules in question and why they had not (yet) apparently be broken.

    No worries. I appreciate it.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, March 22, 2022 17:53:36
    <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak>.

    Heh heh heh...Before Jeff gets the chance, it's 'squawk'. (o_-)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jeff Thiele on Wednesday, March 23, 2022 08:56:40
    Hello Jeff,

    Secondly, when talking about gender, doesn't it seem a little
    absurd
    hear
    yourself saying, "I personally believe that God created man and
    woman
    His
    image?" How many sets of genitalia do you suppose God has? Why
    does H
    even
    need them? With whom does He procreate (except for that one
    time, but
    far
    as we know no genitalia were involved)? If we use the pronoun
    "He," d
    then
    assume that He is male,with male genitalia? How, then, did He
    create
    in
    His image?

    Don't you get it, man? God is a true hermaphrodite.
    And Jesus was His/Her only begotten Son, born of a Virgin.
    Oh my ...

    That's one possibility. However, it fails the "in His own image" test. If God
    is a hermaphrodite and we aren't, then clearly we were not made in His image.

    The difference between men and women is a "gift" we should all be
    thankful for.

    "In his own image" is all well and good while we're talking about arms and legs and ears and nostrils, but it definitely falls apart when it comes to genitalia. And tits. Does God have tits? Maybe just one tit, like an Amazon?

    Think it out. Judas Iscariot kissed Jesus on the lips. At night. In
    a garden. Just think what would have happened had Jesus' disciples
    seen what happened rather than Roman soldiers. Both Judas and his
    lover would have been stoned. But that is not what happened. Why not?
    Because Jesus was both human and divine. IOW, a true hermaphrodite,
    being both male and female.

    Jesus had always told folks "When you see me, you have seen the
    father" or "Me and my father are one" or some similar words.

    Do you think s/he was lying?

    --Lee

    --
    Big Or Small We Lay Them All

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Jimmy Anderson@1:116/17 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, March 23, 2022 12:34:00
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

    What does God look like?

    Impossible to describe with human terms, I think.

    Have you seen the face of God?

    No.

    Please. Tell me. I really want to know. Draw me a picture.

    Can't do it - won't try.

    Or paint me an image of His face. Does He really have a
    beard? Is that dude on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel
    really God Himself? And who says God is a He?

    LOL - that is someone's interpretation and representation, just
    like the convict that has come to be known as what Jesus
    looked like.

    For all we know, God could be some kind of Holy Cockroach.

    I don't think so, because man is not in the image of a cockroach.
    The bible says God is the great I Am, and that He made man and
    woman in His image. I don't think that's a direct 'carbon copy'
    of what He looks like, but is an earthly representation of the
    form or type of presence.

    I also beleive we have a soul and that one day when I go to
    Heaven I'll have a glorified body that will never age or die.

    Another way of looking at it is I don't look like a carbon
    copy of my earthly father, but I have some of his physical
    traits, as do my sons of me, so in a sense we are all in
    the image of our own father, but not a picture perfect
    copy.



    ... Be alert! The country needs more lerts.
    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    * Origin: Omicron Theta (1:116/17)
  • From Jimmy Anderson@1:116/17 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, March 23, 2022 12:53:00
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

    Jesus was not Christian. His father was not Christian. His mother
    was not Christian. His closest friends and followers were not
    Christian.

    Christian is a term derived later - means Christ-like,
    or to put it more bluntly, to TRY and follow His teachings. WWJD and
    all that.

    His teachings were rejected. By his own people. Jews rarely read
    the New Testament, or even menition his name. It is considered taboo.

    Not by all. The Apostles, for example, were Jewish and they believed,
    but again not ALL beleived, and not all that hear about Him today
    believe.

    But yeah, they were Jews.

    Two different religions. Jews look backwards to a world that was. Christians look forwards to a world they hope might be.

    Not sure I follow your point...

    There is no evidence to support claims he traveled anywhere
    outside the land of Palestine. It is doubtful he could read or write.
    Nobody knows who wrote the gospel accounts, as not many people in his
    day could write. There is much to question what he said or taught.

    Choosing to believe the Word or not is a personal thing. The only 'evidence' I need I take on faith, and of course it's not up to
    me to 'prove' it to you or anyone else. :-) The Holy Spirit calls
    one to repentance.

    To believe is to doubt. And one must doubt to believe. It cannot be
    any other way. Jesus does not believe in God. He knows he is God. At
    least that is what he claimed. Which is why many in his day thought
    he was total bonkers.

    Please clarify what you mean. Are you saying that I doubt because I say
    I believe? I could just as easily say "I know that I am a Christian and
    that Jesus died for my sins," but I choose to say I beleive so that I
    can still communicate with non-believers. To say "I know it even though
    you say it's not true" might shut the door on someone hearing what I
    have to say.

    I don't see how being anti-abortion imposes God's laws on others... This country was built on freedom, but also built on Christianity. Abortion
    is murder, which is supposed to be illegal, both God's laws AND the laws of this country, but that has been changed.

    There is nothing in Judaism that condemns abortion. Jesus never
    condemned any woman who had an abortion, or considered getting an abortion. So why should Christians condemn what Jews do not?

    So murder is okay then, since 'abortion' is not listed as a sin?

    Then let me go murder someone and call it, oh, I don't know, a
    clensing of the street. That makes it okay?

    What are God's laws? A group of men ganged up on a woman fixing
    to stone her. Jesus stopped them in their tracks and challenged
    them, first by drawing a few lines in the sand,

    I heard a preacher say he thinks that Jesus might have been writing
    the 10 commandments in the dirt, so they could all see that they
    themselves are not 'free from sin.'

    then by saying
    "Let the man without sin throw the first stone!" Almost all of
    them dropped their stones and walked away. The few stragglers
    needed a bit more convincing, so Jesus drew a few more lines and
    they all went away after that.

    What did the woman do? She was with another woman. Had she been
    with a man who was not her husband it would have been okay for
    others to stone her. But since she was a woman with another woman,
    then it stands to reason everything was okay. It is all explained
    in the Book of Leviticus, which is part of the Torah.

    I have never read where she was with a woman...

    John 8 says, in the King James, she was 'taken in adultery, in the very
    act.'

    Verse 5 says Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be
    stoned: but what sayest thou?

    So where in this story is 'everything okay?' Jesus forgave her, He
    didn't tell her it was okay and 'not wrong.'

    Verse 7 - And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee:
    go, and sin no more.

    Note He does NOT say, "it's okay, it wasn't wrong." No, He FORGIVES
    her for what she did.

    A Jewish rabbi explained it to me some time ago. It really wasn't
    so much about religion, but rather what women want.

    Supporting representatives that share your belief is not imposing God's law, it's 'imposing' majority rule. Sometimes that is for God's law, and most of the time it's against it...

    There is also tyranny of the minority, when a small group holds
    the majority hostage. Such as when a group of Republican Senators
    keep a Democratic President's nomination for USSC justice from
    even getting a hearing.

    Even then, regardless of which side of the aisle it's on, it should be representative of the people. If you don't like what your representative
    is doing, replace them!

    I still remember when stores closed on Sunday around here. Not any more!

    Blue Laws still exist in some parts. Mostly in the South.

    I'm in the south... nothing around here like that! And people laugh
    about Chick Fil A and Hobby Lobby not opening on Sunday... Not so much
    any more, but they used to...

    I'm a Christian, not a 'bible thumper'.

    Bible Thumper - LOL - haven't heard that in a while. I've always seen
    that as a derogotory term. :-)

    Have you ever attended Mass in an RCC church? Every part of the
    Mass (except for one line) is taken directly from the Bible.

    No, I have not, to answer your question.

    You don't even know what a Christian is, or is supposed to be.

    Enlighten me on your belief then.

    I literally do not care what anyone else believes.

    Amen, brother. I agree mostly. I do care, in the sense that I don't
    want to see anyone face the Wrath, but others don't have to believe
    what I believe.

    I care very much what others believe. If Vladimir Putin is truly
    a madman, we should all care very much what he believes.

    If he's not a madman then it doesn't matter what he believes?

    I meant more specifically people that I talk to. Obviously I care about
    what other people believe if they believer that it's okay to hurt me
    or my family, or hurt children, or kill babies. But WHY they believe
    it? I don't lose sleep over that... Each person is ultimately responsible for their own actions.

    Vladimir Putin claims to be a Christian. He might even honestly
    believe he is a Christian. But is he really and truly a Christian?

    Could be - not for me to say. Christians can do right or wrong, and
    can be affected by angels or demons...

    You do realize angels do not have wings. Just look at the ceiling
    of the Sistine Chapel. None of those angels have any wings. As for
    demons, those are really dragons in disguise ...

    I've not seen an angel 'in the flesh,' so to speak. They may have wing
    and they may not. Not something I'm privy to. I beleive they have the
    ability to travel anywhere they want, so I know they don't need
    'wings of a bird' to fly.

    Dragon is another term for Satan, a fallen angel.






    ... To boldly go where no sane man has any business...
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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Wednesday, March 23, 2022 16:15:00
    Widely extablished by the science of feelingsology? I never said it was limited to heterosexuality or procreation, by the way. But someone's sexual preference is not their gender nor their sex. So a homosexual man
    is still a man, for gender purposes, just as is a hetero/homo/bi/nonsexual man who decides he likes to wear women's clothes.

    Things are not so cut and dry when you consider a person's gender identity, which may differ from your definition of gender.

    How this discussion started was that one of us claimed it was predominantly people on the right that had beliefs based on feelings and not logic or science. "Gender identity," if it is different than "gender," is not based
    on logic or science but on a person's feelings and others accepting those feelings. It is a belief that is very predominantly held by non-right
    people, nor is it held by a small group of them.

    As I mentioned before, my belief is that it is for the most part their business, but that belief is not based on science. It is based on my
    feelings about personal freedom.

    Meanwhile, a man who claims his "gender" is being attracted to kids should be a man in jail, but he is still a (bad) man.

    Not necessarily. It depends on whether he acts on it or not. And the same for a woman who is attracted to kids. You are assuming that he can can control his thoughts, which he may not be able to, and those thoughts don't necessarily make him "bad." But he should be able to control his actions, or he should be removed from society.

    How would you like to be judged by every thought you ever had?

    My assumption is that we are talking people who have a "gender identity"
    and actually openly pursue that identity. So, we are not talking a Thought Police situation here.

    <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak>.

    How did Ron get in here?

    I don't remember Ron being the one that immitates a parrot. :)


    * SLMR 2.1a * Excuse me - but HOW do you spell EMT ????
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to SHAUN BUZZA on Wednesday, March 23, 2022 15:50:00
    <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak>.

    Heh heh heh...Before Jeff gets the chance, it's 'squawk'. (o_-)

    I am not at all shocked I spelled it wrong, but I am shocked he didn't mention it in his response. <grin>


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    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jimmy Anderson on Thursday, March 24, 2022 17:21:44
    Hello Jimmy,

    What does God look like?

    Impossible to describe with human terms, I think.

    You're not human???

    Have you seen the face of God?

    No.

    I met Jesus a few decades ago. At the time, I had a newspaper
    route. The priest was one of my customers, and lived in the rectory
    right by the church. Sometimes the church was open at night so nuns
    could say their prayers. One night, I stopped by and inside the
    church was one nun silently saying her prayers. Remember, this
    was early morning hours. Some homeless guy then walked into the
    church, took off all his clothes, found the wine in the sanctuary
    and stepped onto the altar, claiming to be Jesus Christ.

    Me and the nun made our way to the rectory next door and woke
    up the priest, who called authorities to arrest "Jesus". By the
    time police arrived, the bottle of wine was empty.

    Please. Tell me. I really want to know. Draw me a picture.

    Can't do it - won't try.

    Maybe it is a color. With no real shape. I mean, just look at
    how many shades of color we are. I wonder how colorful the one
    who made us is, or might be?

    Or paint me an image of His face. Does He really have a
    beard? Is that dude on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel
    really God Himself? And who says God is a He?

    LOL - that is someone's interpretation and representation, just
    like the convict that has come to be known as what Jesus
    looked like.

    Louis Farrakhan says Jesus was a black man. Maybe he's right.
    But does it really matter what the color of his skin was?

    For all we know, God could be some kind of Holy Cockroach.

    I don't think so, because man is not in the image of a cockroach.

    Look at it from the point of angels. Lucifer was God's most
    beautiful creation. Sat right there, next to God Himself.

    And then God created man (Adam). And woman (Eve).

    Lucifer (and the other angels) did not like that one bit.
    And who can blame them?

    So what did God do? He took a leave of absence, deciding to live
    among creations, as one of them.

    To Lucifer, and to all the other angels, this was as if God Himelf had
    taken the form of a cockroach, and lived amongst them, as a cockroach,
    and called these cockroaches his most precious creation.

    No wonder Lucifer and the angels rebelled against God's rule.

    The bible says God is the great I Am, and that He made man and
    woman in His image. I don't think that's a direct 'carbon copy'
    of what He looks like, but is an earthly representation of the
    form or type of presence.

    How many angels rebelled against God's rule? It was not just
    Lucifer who got all upset about what God did ...

    I also beleive we have a soul and that one day when I go to
    Heaven I'll have a glorified body that will never age or die.

    You're dreaming. Jesus promised eternal life for all who believed
    in Him. Not a new reincarnated body of any kind.

    Now, there are some Jews who believe in reincarnation. But that
    is not what Jesus taught, or believed. In fact, he went to great
    lengths to show his followers that those who die remain in the
    ground for all eternity ...

    Another way of looking at it is I don't look like a carbon
    copy of my earthly father, but I have some of his physical
    traits, as do my sons of me, so in a sense we are all in
    the image of our own father, but not a picture perfect
    copy.

    In the long run, we are all just bacteria collectors. When
    it is used up, we die. And then we are discarded. That is our
    physical existence, regardless of what faith one might be.

    --Lee

    --
    Lovin' beats hatin'.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Jimmy Anderson on Thursday, March 24, 2022 17:21:49
    Hello Jimmy,

    Jesus was not Christian. His father was not Christian. His mother
    was not Christian. His closest friends and followers were not
    Christian.

    Christian is a term derived later - means Christ-like,
    or to put it more bluntly, to TRY and follow His teachings. WWJD and
    all that.

    His teachings were rejected. By his own people. Jews rarely read
    the New Testament, or even menition his name. It is considered taboo.

    Not by all. The Apostles, for example, were Jewish and they believed,
    but again not ALL beleived, and not all that hear about Him today
    believe.

    Oh, come now. None of them believed. They were all scared out of their
    witts, hiding in a room, after Judas was killed and Jesus croaked while
    pegged on a tree. Hell, Jesus was laid to rest in a tomb and wasn't
    coming back. And Judas was left in a potter's field to rot. He wasn't
    coming back either.

    That is what they believed. They believed it was all over. It was
    over for Judas. It was over for Jesus. And it would be over for them
    all when they were caught. That is why they were hiding in a room.

    When a woman came over and told them Jesus was alive, and no longer
    in the tomb, they did not believe her. None of them could be convinced.
    Jesus was dead. Only a fool could imagine otherwise.

    Even after Jesus appeared to them, inside their locked room, they
    still did not believe what they had seen. It must have been a ghost,
    not a real person. Or their imagination. Sleep deprivation does that.
    Must have been really shocking to see a ghost eat and drink while
    attempting to have a conversation with those who were speechless.

    On his second visit, Jesus had more convincing to do. Thomas was
    not there during his first visit, so could not be faulted for his
    unbelief. But true to form, he doubted just as much as the others
    when Jesus came again. But Jesus was prepared. He had a plan to
    convince everybody he truly was a real person and not a ghost. He
    conned Thomas into poking his hand into his side. And lo and behold
    all were convinced. Thomas' bloody hand proved it to them all.

    But yeah, they were Jews.

    Two different religions. Jews look backwards to a world that was.
    Christians look forwards to a world they hope might be.

    Not sure I follow your point...

    Jews look to Torah as their guide. The Law, according to Moses.
    Christians look to Jesus as their guide. The interpretation of Torah,
    according to Jesus. We all know Moses was not/is not God. Which is
    why Jews cannot write or mention the name of G-d. What is outside
    the Torah (first five books of the Old Testament) is unimportant.
    The only thing that counts are those five books.

    Jesus came not to change the Law, but to fulfill the Law. That is
    what got the Jewish priests so upset. He was claiming to be someone
    Jews were forbidden to mention, or name. Very few Jews bother to
    read anything outside of Torah. And even fewer read anything outside
    the books of the Pentatauch (Old Testament).

    Christians look to Jesus, inclusive of all that in the Old Testament
    and New Testament. A world to come, not so much a world that was.
    Jesus is, not someone who was. Looking forward to what can become
    a reality.

    There is no evidence to support claims he traveled anywhere
    outside the land of Palestine. It is doubtful he could read or write.
    Nobody knows who wrote the gospel accounts, as not many people in his
    day could write. There is much to question what he said or taught.

    Choosing to believe the Word or not is a personal thing. The only
    'evidence' I need I take on faith, and of course it's not up to
    me to 'prove' it to you or anyone else. :-) The Holy Spirit calls
    one to repentance.

    To believe is to doubt. And one must doubt to believe. It cannot be
    any other way. Jesus does not believe in God. He knows he is God. At
    least that is what he claimed. Which is why many in his day thought
    he was total bonkers.

    Please clarify what you mean. Are you saying that I doubt because I say
    I believe? I could just as easily say "I know that I am a Christian and that Jesus died for my sins," but I choose to say I beleive so that I
    can still communicate with non-believers. To say "I know it even though you say it's not true" might shut the door on someone hearing what I
    have to say.

    All belief is based on probabilities. Not of absolute certainty.
    None of us can prove God exists. One can say God probably exists.
    Or God probably does not exist. But probably is never absolute.

    Jesus *knows* therefore cannot believe. We have no way of knowing,
    therefore can only believe. Whether that is to believe in the existence
    of a god, or in the non-existence of a god, is still a belief.
    Therefore, the best we can do is a theory of probability.

    I don't see how being anti-abortion imposes God's laws on others...
    This
    country was built on freedom, but also built on Christianity.
    Abortion
    is murder, which is supposed to be illegal, both God's laws AND the
    laws
    of this country, but that has been changed.

    There is nothing in Judaism that condemns abortion. Jesus never
    condemned any woman who had an abortion, or considered getting an
    abortion. So why should Christians condemn what Jews do not?

    So murder is okay then, since 'abortion' is not listed as a sin?

    According to Jews, abortion is not murder, since it is not forbidden
    in regards to the Torah.

    The Ten Commandments (according to Jews) is not just a list of ten
    not-to-do things, but a list of 613 horrible things that should never
    be done by any Jew. It is not possible for any Jew to be perfect.

    But abortion is not mentioned even amongst those 613 horrible things
    that should never be done by any Jew.

    Then let me go murder someone and call it, oh, I don't know, a
    clensing of the street. That makes it okay?

    We have the death penalty in this country. That is state-sanctioned
    murder. The state murdering someone in my name. That is not okay by
    me. Nor should it be okay by anybody else. Especially by those who
    consider themselves as being Christian.

    The state of South Carolina just made it okay to shoot the condemned
    by firing squad. The default for execution is the electric chair,
    which is operational. What a grisly way to go. The options are now
    lethal injection (by one drug, the same used by vets to put down
    animals), and firing squad (by three marksmen hiding behind cover).

    What a sick society we have. And to think we are a "Christian" nation.

    What are God's laws? A group of men ganged up on a woman fixing
    to stone her. Jesus stopped them in their tracks and challenged
    them, first by drawing a few lines in the sand,

    I heard a preacher say he thinks that Jesus might have been writing
    the 10 commandments in the dirt, so they could all see that they themselves are not 'free from sin.'

    According to the gospels, he was writing doodles (not commandments
    of any kind). You are familiar with stick figures? Imagine Jesus
    drawing two stick figures in the sand. Two female stick figures.
    That convinced most would-be stoners to drop their stones and
    walk away. Showing two female stick figures holding hands convinced
    the straggleres to drop their stones and walk away.

    then by saying
    "Let the man without sin throw the first stone!" Almost all of
    them dropped their stones and walked away. The few stragglers
    needed a bit more convincing, so Jesus drew a few more lines and
    they all went away after that.

    What did the woman do? She was with another woman. Had she been
    with a man who was not her husband it would have been okay for
    others to stone her. But since she was a woman with another woman,
    then it stands to reason everything was okay. It is all explained
    in the Book of Leviticus, which is part of the Torah.

    I have never read where she was with a woman...

    It is implied. Knowing the rules (found in Leviticus) makes it more understandable.

    John 8 says, in the King James, she was 'taken in adultery, in the very act.'

    She was [falsely] accused of adultery, but was shown by Jesus not to
    have broken the rules.

    Verse 5 says Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    Only for adultery. It is not adultery for a woman to be with another
    woman. Especially if she is not owned (by her father or husband).

    So where in this story is 'everything okay?' Jesus forgave her, He
    didn't tell her it was okay and 'not wrong.'

    What he meant by "do not do it again" is more likely a reference
    to do not get caught as I might not be there to get you out of a jam
    next time.

    Let's face it. Lesbians have been around since the beginning of time.
    They are not going to stop doing their thing any time soon. So why
    should it be a "sin" or an excuse for anybody to condemn them and get
    rid of them (whether by stoning or any other means)?

    Verse 7 - And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee:
    go, and sin no more.

    Even those who have nothing to confess are told that line by their
    confessor - go, and sin no more. So what was it Jesus condemned her
    of? He did not even accuse her of having done any wrong.

    Note He does NOT say, "it's okay, it wasn't wrong." No, He FORGIVES
    her for what she did.

    You still don't get it. Jesus forgives her for *all* her sins, whatever
    those sins might be, and tells her to go, and sin no more.

    A Jewish rabbi explained it to me some time ago. It really wasn't
    so much about religion, but rather what women want.

    Supporting representatives that share your belief is not imposing God's
    law, it's 'imposing' majority rule. Sometimes that is for God's law, and
    most of the time it's against it...

    There is also tyranny of the minority, when a small group holds
    the majority hostage. Such as when a group of Republican Senators
    keep a Democratic President's nomination for USSC justice from
    even getting a hearing.

    Even then, regardless of which side of the aisle it's on, it should be representative of the people. If you don't like what your representative is doing, replace them!

    Let's not have any hearings until my own party is the majority. That
    is what Mitch McConnell told Barack Obama a few years ago. Is that what
    you believe in? A minority party holding the entire country hostage in
    order to get what it wants?

    That is an obstructionist view. Not a democratic one. No progress
    can be made when obstructionists rule the day.

    I still remember when stores closed on Sunday around here. Not any more!

    Blue Laws still exist in some parts. Mostly in the South.

    I'm in the south... nothing around here like that! And people laugh
    about Chick Fil A and Hobby Lobby not opening on Sunday... Not so much
    any more, but they used to...

    They are still around. Very much so in some parts.

    I'm a Christian, not a 'bible thumper'.

    Bible Thumper - LOL - haven't heard that in a while. I've always seen
    that as a derogotory term. :-)

    Have you ever attended Mass in an RCC church? Every part of the
    Mass (except for one line) is taken directly from the Bible.

    No, I have not, to answer your question.

    I took apart the Mass, line by line, some years ago. There was only
    one line (from the Didache) that was not part of the Bible.

    You don't even know what a Christian is, or is supposed to be.

    Enlighten me on your belief then.

    I want to experience God. That is what religion is all about.
    What does it mean to you?

    I literally do not care what anyone else believes.

    Amen, brother. I agree mostly. I do care, in the sense that I don't
    want to see anyone face the Wrath, but others don't have to believe
    what I believe.

    I care very much what others believe. If Vladimir Putin is truly
    a madman, we should all care very much what he believes.

    If he's not a madman then it doesn't matter what he believes?

    Only if he was a clockwork orange.

    I meant more specifically people that I talk to. Obviously I care about what other people believe if they believer that it's okay to hurt me
    or my family, or hurt children, or kill babies. But WHY they believe
    it? I don't lose sleep over that... Each person is ultimately responsible for
    their own actions.

    Was Hitler ultimately held responsible for what he did?
    Some say he escaped Berlin and made it to South America.
    Will Putin be held responsible for what he is doing?

    Vladimir Putin claims to be a Christian. He might even honestly
    believe he is a Christian. But is he really and truly a Christian?

    Could be - not for me to say. Christians can do right or wrong, and
    can be affected by angels or demons...

    You do realize angels do not have wings. Just look at the ceiling
    of the Sistine Chapel. None of those angels have any wings. As for
    demons, those are really dragons in disguise ...

    I've not seen an angel 'in the flesh,' so to speak. They may have wing
    and they may not. Not something I'm privy to. I beleive they have the ability to travel anywhere they want, so I know they don't need
    'wings of a bird' to fly.

    Michelangelo claimed to be a sculptor and not a painter. But all
    his works of art were truly fantastic. So many frescoes, done while
    on his back, oh I am sure he was happy when he was finally finished
    with that project ...

    Dragon is another term for Satan, a fallen angel.

    Apparently you have never played L.O.R.D. :)

    --Lee

    --
    We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 24, 2022 22:10:40
    On 23 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Things are not so cut and dry when you consider a person's gender identi which may differ from your definition of gender.

    How this discussion started was that one of us claimed it was predominantly people on the right that had beliefs based on feelings and not logic or science. "Gender identity," if it is different than "gender," is not based on logic or science but on a person's feelings
    and others accepting those feelings. It is a belief that is very predominantly held by non-right people, nor is it held by a small group
    of them.

    Inasmuch as science is the study of observed phenomenon, gender identity is very much based on science.

    As I mentioned before, my belief is that it is for the most part their business, but that belief is not based on science. It is based on my feelings about personal freedom.

    Agreed. What goes on in one's bedroom, as long as it only involves consenting adults, is very much one's own business.

    Meanwhile, a man who claims his "gender" is being attracted to kids should be a man in jail, but he is still a (bad) man.

    Not necessarily. It depends on whether he acts on it or not. And the sam a woman who is attracted to kids. You are assuming that he can can contr his thoughts, which he may not be able to, and those thoughts don't necessarily make him "bad." But he should be able to control his actions he should be removed from society.

    How would you like to be judged by every thought you ever had?

    My assumption is that we are talking people who have a "gender identity" and actually openly pursue that identity. So, we are not talking a Thought Police situation here.

    My assumption is that you did not make that clear in the original proposition.

    <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak> refusal to accept reality <squak>.

    How did Ron get in here?

    I don't remember Ron being the one that immitates a parrot. :)

    Aye, but Ron *is* the parrot.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Friday, March 25, 2022 16:01:00
    How this discussion started was that one of us claimed it was predominantly people on the right that had beliefs based on feelings and not logic or science. "Gender identity," if it is different than "gender," is not based on logic or science but on a person's feelings and others accepting those feelings. It is a belief that is very predominantly held by non-right people, nor is it held by a small group of them.

    Inasmuch as science is the study of observed phenomenon, gender identity is very much based on science.

    You could use that logic to make a lot of beliefs "science based," even conservative beliefs that you would otherwise point to as "detached from reality," so I would be careful using that as your proof.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Monday, March 28, 2022 18:40:00
    On 25 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Inasmuch as science is the study of observed phenomenon, gender identity very much based on science.

    You could use that logic to make a lot of beliefs "science based," even conservative beliefs that you would otherwise point to as "detached from reality," so I would be careful using that as your proof.

    Conservative beliefs that are "detached from reality" are not the study of observed phenomenon, since they seek to prove a pre-determined outcome rather than follow where the science leads them.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Tuesday, March 29, 2022 16:38:00
    Inasmuch as science is the study of observed phenomenon, gender identit
    very much based on science.

    You could use that logic to make a lot of beliefs "science based," even conservative beliefs that you would otherwise point to as "detached from reality," so I would be careful using that as your proof.

    Conservative beliefs that are "detached from reality" are not the study of observed phenomenon, since they seek to prove a pre-determined outcome rather than follow where the science leads them.

    Which is the same thing I would say about multiple gender identities that
    break away from biological gender. Most people I know who believe that are
    not basing it on following any science or observing any phenomenon. They
    are basing it on what they are told by people who share their political beliefs.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, March 29, 2022 16:32:31
    On 29 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Conservative beliefs that are "detached from reality" are not the study observed phenomenon, since they seek to prove a pre-determined outcome r than follow where the science leads them.

    Which is the same thing I would say about multiple gender identities that break away from biological gender. Most people I know who believe that are not basing it on following any science or observing any phenomenon. They are basing it on what they are told by people who share their political beliefs.

    Humans espousing different sexualities and gender identities *are* observed phenomenon. The study of these phenomena is done primarily by psychiatrists,
    as in: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dy sphoria

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Wednesday, March 30, 2022 15:32:00
    Which is the same thing I would say about multiple gender identities that
    break away from biological gender. Most people I know who believe that are not basing it on following any science or observing any phenomenon. They are basing it on what they are told by people who share their political beliefs.

    Humans espousing different sexualities and gender identities *are* observed phenomenon. The study of these phenomena is done primarily by psychiatrists, as in: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-d
    sphoria

    But yet if I were to espouse an opinion that these people need psychiatric
    or psycological assistance, what would your response be?

    What if someone were to take it a step farther and suggest that they need treatment to the point where their psychiatric issue is not noticable to others? That is what is often done with persons with other psychiatric disorders.

    Even then, your response does not address my original point... there may be science behind it, but most people who believe in it, and that it is
    something we all need to be touchy-feely about, are doing so solely based
    on their political beliefs and/or feelings. There are probably some things that conservatives believe, which can be proven by science, but you and I
    both know that is not why they believe them. The same is true of
    left-leaning people... the difference being that their beliefs are
    less-likely to be religion-based, and more likely to be feelings-based or politically-based (vs. religion-based).

    Which is where this whole discussion started.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Wednesday, March 30, 2022 16:25:56
    On 30 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Humans espousing different sexualities and gender identities *are* obser phenomenon. The study of these phenomena is done primarily by psychiatri as in:

    https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-ge sphoria

    But yet if I were to espouse an opinion that these people need
    psychiatric or psycological assistance, what would your response be?

    I would defer to the psychiatric and psychological professionals, much as I
    did in presenting the link above.

    What if someone were to take it a step farther and suggest that they need treatment to the point where their psychiatric issue is not noticable to others? That is what is often done with persons with other psychiatric disorders.

    Again, I would defer to the psychiatric and psychological professionals. The belief that these are psychiatric disorders is in error, rendering such treatment in error as well.

    Even then, your response does not address my original point... there may be science behind it, but most people who believe in it, and that it is something we all need to be touchy-feely about, are doing so solely based on their political beliefs and/or feelings. There are probably some things that conservatives believe, which can be proven by science, but
    you and I both know that is not why they believe them. The same is true of left-leaning people... the difference being that their beliefs are less-likely to be religion-based, and more likely to be feelings-based or politically-based (vs. religion-based).

    I tend to go with the science, if it's available on a given topic. If not,
    I'll go with opinion if it seems to me to be fair and equitable. In no case
    do I support using the power of the state to impose one's religious beliefs
    on others.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Thursday, March 31, 2022 16:25:00
    Humans espousing different sexualities and gender identities *are* obse
    phenomenon. The study of these phenomena is done primarily by psychiatr
    as in:

    https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-g
    sphoria

    But yet if I were to espouse an opinion that these people need psychiatric or psycological assistance, what would your response be?

    I would defer to the psychiatric and psychological professionals, much as I did in presenting the link above.

    Gender dysphoria is defined in the DSM-5 as causing "clinically significant distress." Sounds like they should seek assistance, if they are truly
    gender dysphoric.

    However, as we've been talking about people who believe in multiple, and
    fluid, genders, I don't think that is what we are talking about. Gender dysphoric people believe they were born into the wrong gendered body at
    birth. Multiple gender believers believe it is a "gender" when people are sexually attracted to, or identify as, things that would not have been biologically possible for the person to have been born as.

    Gender nonconformity, which is what that is, is not the same as gender dysphoria.

    Gender nonconformity can include people who are gender dysphoric, but can
    also include people who have confused their sexual orientation as their
    gender and/or want their sexual orientation to be treated as their gender,
    or that simply don't want to be labeled. This is where the fluidity comes in as, for example, if one is attracted to/identifies as a male, female, and some other nonhuman being/object, they may identify as that orientation, and mislabel it as their "gender," differently depending on what they are feeling at that moment.

    People who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria have a geniune medical diagnosis. People who are self-diagnosed with gender dysphoria, people who
    are gender nonconformist, people who mislabel their non-binary sexual orientation/identiy as a "gender," and people who feel like they should be
    able to go to work dressed as they would to a cos-play or furry convention,
    may or may not have a genuine, scientific medical condition.

    I may "feel" like my gender is a potato, and that my pronouns are "tater/tater," but there is no biological, psycological, physiological, or psychiatric scientific proof. Now, yeah, maybe you could observe it, and call it "science," but you would have to stretch into the social sciences, which
    are all about feelings.


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  • From Shaun Buzza@1:229/110 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 31, 2022 17:18:56
    How the fudge is this topic still continuing? (Q_Q)

    McDoob
    SysOp, PiBBS
    pibbs.sytes.net

    ... Unzip... expand... What kind of pervert came up with this?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: PiBBS (1:229/110)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Thursday, March 31, 2022 19:22:35
    On 31 Mar 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Gender dysphoria is defined in the DSM-5 as causing "clinically significant distress." Sounds like they should seek assistance, if they are truly gender dysphoric.

    They probably should. And their state governor should not send CPS to their home if their parents allow them access to such assistance.

    However, as we've been talking about people who believe in multiple, and fluid, genders, I don't think that is what we are talking about. Gender dysphoric people believe they were born into the wrong gendered body at birth. Multiple gender believers believe it is a "gender" when people
    are sexually attracted to, or identify as, things that would not have
    been biologically possible for the person to have been born as.

    They are related, in that a person is not comfortable with the gender roles that society imposes on them. If gender dysphoria exists, then it would
    follow that gender is fluid.

    Gender nonconformity, which is what that is, is not the same as gender dysphoria.

    It's closely related, though, and the more rigid one's idea of gender is, the more closely related the two are.

    Gender nonconformity can include people who are gender dysphoric, but can also include people who have confused their sexual orientation as their gender and/or want their sexual orientation to be treated as their
    gender, or that simply don't want to be labeled. This is where the fluidity comes in as, for example, if one is attracted to/identifies as
    a male, female, and some other nonhuman being/object, they may identify
    as that orientation, and mislabel it as their "gender," differently depending on what they are feeling at that moment.

    They are people who don't want to be labelled as the gender that a largely conservative society imposes on them. There are instances in nature of living things having more than two, and in some cases thousands, of genders, and
    also instances of living things that can change gender after having been born.

    People who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria have a geniune medical diagnosis. People who are self-diagnosed with gender dysphoria, people who are gender nonconformist, people who mislabel their non-binary sexual orientation/identiy as a "gender," and people who feel like they should
    be able to go to work dressed as they would to a cos-play or furry convention, may or may not have a genuine, scientific medical condition.

    The furry thing is a red herring. Conservatives have even falsely claimed,
    with an entirely straight face, that schools are installing litter boxes for kids who identify as "furries."

    However, until the people you describe have been diagnosed with a genuine, scientific medical condition, I don't think we should treat them as if they have been. Decades ago, women wearing pantsuits to work was a horrendous upheaval of societal gender expectations, but now it's no big deal.

    I may "feel" like my gender is a potato, and that my pronouns are "tater/tater," but there is no biological, psycological, physiological,
    or psychiatric scientific proof. Now, yeah, maybe you could observe it, and call it "science," but you would have to stretch into the social sciences, which are all about feelings.

    I'm not sure that "potato" is a gender, but if you're attracted to them then more power to you, I guess.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Shaun Buzza on Friday, April 01, 2022 01:36:00
    On 03-31-22 17:18, Shaun Buzza <=-
    spoke to Mike Powell about Re: Feelings-based belief <=-


    How the fudge is this topic still continuing? (Q_Q)

    Because no one changes subject lines any more? :-}}

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 01:36:58, 01 Apr 2022
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Mike Powell on Monday, April 04, 2022 06:54:01
    Hello Mike,

    Inasmuch as science is the study of observed phenomenon, gender
    identit
    very much based on science.

    You could use that logic to make a lot of beliefs "science based,"
    even
    conservative beliefs that you would otherwise point to as "detached
    from
    reality," so I would be careful using that as your proof.

    Conservative beliefs that are "detached from reality" are not the study of
    observed phenomenon, since they seek to prove a pre-determined outcome
    rather
    than follow where the science leads them.

    Which is the same thing I would say about multiple gender identities that break away from biological gender.

    What a fool to even think that. Everybody in the entire world has
    a gender identity. Not two or three or four or five. Jeez.

    Most people I know who believe that are not basing it on following any science or observing any phenomenon.

    There are five sexes of man -

    1. male
    2. female
    3. pseudo-hermaphrodite
    4. true hermaphrodite
    5. eunuch

    Which one are you?

    They are basing it on what they are told by people who share their political
    beliefs.

    "He's the fool on the hill ..."

    The Beatles were not talking about themselves.

    --Lee

    --
    Pussy grabs back!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Mike Powell on Monday, April 04, 2022 06:54:18
    Hello Mike,

    Which is the same thing I would say about multiple gender
    identities that
    break away from biological gender. Most people I know who believe
    that
    are not basing it on following any science or observing any
    phenomenon.
    They are basing it on what they are told by people who share their
    political beliefs.

    Humans espousing different sexualities and gender identities *are*
    observed
    phenomenon. The study of these phenomena is done primarily by
    psychiatrists,
    as in:

    https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-d
    sphoria

    But yet if I were to espouse an opinion that these people need psychiatric or psycological assistance, what would your response be?

    Sometimes you feel like a nut. Sometimes you don't.

    What if someone were to take it a step farther and suggest that they need treatment to the point where their psychiatric issue is not noticable to others? That is what is often done with persons with other psychiatric disorders.

    If I know I'm nuts, I can't be nuts.
    If I know I'm not, I must be nuts.
    If I think I'm nuts, I might be nuts.

    Even then, your response does not address my original point... there may be
    science behind it, but most people who believe in it, and that it is something we all need to be touchy-feely about, are doing so solely based on their political beliefs and/or feelings.

    There is no point. Everybody has a gender identity. One's sexual
    orientation is something that is totally separate. But you are too
    stupid to understand that basic concept. So I will not bother to
    further educate you on this very simple matter.

    There are probably some things that conservatives believe, which can be proven by science, but you and I both know that is not why they believe them.

    Horseshit is horseshit no matter how you cut the cake.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to SHAUN BUZZA on Monday, April 04, 2022 17:01:00
    How the fudge is this topic still continuing? (Q_Q)

    You are the one that wanted traffic. :)

    We seem to be keeping it civil so far.


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Monday, April 04, 2022 16:58:00
    Gender dysphoria is defined in the DSM-5 as causing "clinically significant distress." Sounds like they should seek assistance, if they are truly gender dysphoric.

    They probably should. And their state governor should not send CPS to their home if their parents allow them access to such assistance.

    On the surface, that sounds like a waste of money (sending CPS in).

    OTOH, there are some whack jobs that have likely caused "gender dysphoria"
    in their children, either by being overly strict in suppressing anything
    they see as a behavior a kid of that gender should not do, OR by deciding
    that, since they have two boys, one should be a "girl" and the parent decides which one.

    So maybe, if the kid is under 18 and gives some indication that the parents
    may be causing the "clinically significant distress," they should at least visit once to determine that the kid is not dysphoric due to things done to them against their will/knowledge.

    I suspect you are referring to governors doing that for other reasons that
    I am not aware of.

    However, as we've been talking about people who believe in multiple, and fluid, genders, I don't think that is what we are talking about. Gender dysphoric people believe they were born into the wrong gendered body at birth. Multiple gender believers believe it is a "gender" when people are sexually attracted to, or identify as, things that would not have been biologically possible for the person to have been born as.

    They are related, in that a person is not comfortable with the gender roles that society imposes on them. If gender dysphoria exists, then it would follow that gender is fluid.

    Gender dysphoria, again, usually involves people who believe they are sex A trapped inside the body of sex B, and are clinically significantly
    distressed as a result. Anyone I have known of who believes that,
    dysphoric or not, are not fluid in that belief, i.e. they don't go from believing they are male to female to "other gender(s)" and back. They
    believe they are physically A and mentally/emotionally B and stick with it.

    They are related, in that a person is not comfortable with the gender roles that society imposes on them.

    Gender roles <> gender. If I don't like my male gender roles, and chose not
    to accept them, I am still male-gendered but am not observing traditional male roles. Not observing those socially-defined roles does not change my
    gender. And since gender ROLES are socially-defined, they are (mostly) not restricted by biology or physiology.

    Expanding to multiple genders is some way of trying to legitimize non-traditional behaviors that, so long as they are not interfering with the lives or rights of others, should probably not need that much legitimizing.

    They are people who don't want to be labelled as the gender that a largely conservative society imposes on them. There are instances in nature of living things having more than two, and in some cases thousands, of genders, and also instances of living things that can change gender after having been born.

    What other genders, besides male, female, both, and non-gendered, do these 1000-gendered beings have?

    I am aware that some beings, including humans, are born with
    characteristics of both, and that other beings can change from male to
    female to non and (maybe) both. At most, that is four. Humans are not
    able to change their biological gender (on their own) as those beings can.

    People who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria have a geniune medical diagnosis. People who are self-diagnosed with gender dysphoria, people who are gender nonconformist, people who mislabel their non-binary sexual
    orientation/identiy as a "gender," and people who feel like they should be able to go to work dressed as they would to a cos-play or furry convention, may or may not have a genuine, scientific medical condition.

    The furry thing is a red herring. Conservatives have even falsely claimed, with an entirely straight face, that schools are installing litter boxes for kids who identify as "furries."

    I have actually never heard that false-sounding claim, re: litter boxes for furry kids. I am talking about adults and was being quasi-facetious (but not entirely).

    However, until the people you describe have been diagnosed with a genuine, scientific medical condition, I don't think we should treat them as if they have been. Decades ago, women wearing pantsuits to work was a horrendous upheaval of societal gender expectations, but now it's no big deal.

    Well, that actually brings me to a point. A woman wearing a pant-suit does
    not assume a new gender. At that time, she was going against society's
    view of normal gender behavior, but she is still female-gendered.

    If one were to assert to a woman that they were no longer a woman for wearing such an outfit, or while wearing one, I would not want to witness the results. I doubt either of us would make such a mistake. I prefer not to have the
    snot slapped out of me, or to be verbally abused, for making such an error.

    I may "feel" like my gender is a potato, and that my pronouns are "tater/tater," but there is no biological, psycological, physiological, or psychiatric scientific proof. Now, yeah, maybe you could observe it, and call it "science," but you would have to stretch into the social sciences, which are all about feelings.

    I'm not sure that "potato" is a gender, but if you're attracted to them then more power to you, I guess.

    If there are multiple genders, defined by whatever one wants to imagine for themselves, you have to accept that potato could be one of them. Based on
    your response, you are making the common mistake that sexual attraction/ orientation = gender, which it does not.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, April 05, 2022 07:50:14
    On 04 Apr 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    How the fudge is this topic still continuing? (Q_Q)

    You are the one that wanted traffic. :)

    We seem to be keeping it civil so far.

    I'd like tho think so.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Tuesday, April 05, 2022 08:27:29
    On 04 Apr 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
    Gender dysphoria is defined in the DSM-5 as causing "clinically significant distress." Sounds like they should seek assistance, if are truly gender dysphoric.

    They probably should. And their state governor should not send CPS to th home if their parents allow them access to such assistance.

    On the surface, that sounds like a waste of money (sending CPS in).

    You would think so, right? And yet that's what he's doing.

    OTOH, there are some whack jobs that have likely caused "gender
    dysphoria" in their children, either by being overly strict in
    suppressing anything they see as a behavior a kid of that gender should not do, OR by deciding that, since they have two boys, one should be a "girl" and the parent decides which one.

    Perhaps, but I don't think that's the norm.

    So maybe, if the kid is under 18 and gives some indication that the parents may be causing the "clinically significant distress," they
    should at least visit once to determine that the kid is not dysphoric
    due to things done to them against their will/knowledge.

    It's a political move to ingratiate himself with conservatives, nothing more. We've got Allen West and others trying to primary Abbott, and he's got to woo that ultra-conservative crowd if he wants to remain governor.

    I suspect you are referring to governors doing that for other reasons
    that I am not aware of.

    Nope. He's doing it for the very reason I laid out. There was even an article about a family that invited him to dinner so that he could see that they were normal people and discuss the situation with them. They got CPS called on
    them.

    They are related, in that a person is not comfortable with the gender ro that society imposes on them. If gender dysphoria exists, then it would follow that gender is fluid.

    Gender dysphoria, again, usually involves people who believe they are
    sex A trapped inside the body of sex B, and are clinically significantly distressed as a result. Anyone I have known of who believes that, dysphoric or not, are not fluid in that belief, i.e. they don't go from believing they are male to female to "other gender(s)" and back. They believe they are physically A and mentally/emotionally B and stick with it.

    It is fluid in that the gender they identify with may not be the gender their physical gender.

    They are related, in that a person is not comfortable with the gender ro that society imposes on them.

    Gender roles <> gender. If I don't like my male gender roles, and chose not to accept them, I am still male-gendered but am not observing traditional male roles. Not observing those socially-defined roles does not change my gender. And since gender ROLES are socially-defined, they are (mostly) not restricted by biology or physiology.

    Mmm, not so much. It can definitely cause friction that would not be there if there were not rigid gender roles (such as who can wear a dress, for example).

    Expanding to multiple genders is some way of trying to legitimize non-traditional behaviors that, so long as they are not interfering with the lives or rights of others, should probably not need that much legitimizing.

    I think you're right that it's at least partially due to that friction. So
    to a certain degree, in trying to stop it conservative society is actually encouraging it.

    They are people who don't want to be labelled as the gender that a large conservative society imposes on them. There are instances in nature of l things having more than two, and in some cases thousands, of genders, an also instances of living things that can change gender after having been
    born.

    What other genders, besides male, female, both, and non-gendered, do
    these 1000-gendered beings have?

    I have no idea. I have difficulty wrapping my mind around fungal spores that apparently have 20,000 genders (not all, I don't think; just particular species). I am comfortable with my gender and have never explored other possibilities. I'm not really a hyper-aggressive, testosterone-fueled,
    "macho" example of my gender, nor do I wish to be, but I'm comfortable with
    who I am.

    I am aware that some beings, including humans, are born with characteristics of both, and that other beings can change from male to female to non and (maybe) both. At most, that is four. Humans are not able to change their biological gender (on their own) as those beings
    can.

    We are not, that we know of. That's not to say that we can, but I believe
    that the science indicates that those creatures which are capable of it do
    not do it on a whim, but that it is triggered by environmental stressors. Perhaps we're just not stressed enough yet. ;)

    The furry thing is a red herring. Conservatives have even falsely claime with an entirely straight face, that schools are installing litter boxes kids who identify as "furries."

    I have actually never heard that false-sounding claim, re: litter boxes for furry kids. I am talking about adults and was being quasi-facetious (but not entirely).

    I've heard of it, too, more as some kind of sexual practice than as a
    lifestyle choice. The people claiming litter boxes in schools were apparently quite serious about it.

    However, until the people you describe have been diagnosed with a genuin scientific medical condition, I don't think we should treat them as if t have been. Decades ago, women wearing pantsuits to work was a horrendous upheaval of societal gender expectations, but now it's no big deal.

    Well, that actually brings me to a point. A woman wearing a pant-suit does not assume a new gender. At that time, she was going against society's view of normal gender behavior, but she is still female-gendered.

    It was considered gender-inappropriate, just as a man in drag is today by
    many conservatives. It certainly caused speculation as to what gender they thought they were, or were trying to be.

    If one were to assert to a woman that they were no longer a woman for wearing such an outfit, or while wearing one, I would not want to
    witness the results. I doubt either of us would make such a mistake. I prefer not to have the snot slapped out of me, or to be verbally abused, for making such an error.

    We live in different times today. The pantsuit women, among others, were pioneers for a less gender-structured future.

    I may "feel" like my gender is a potato, and that my pronouns are "tater/tater," but there is no biological, psycological, physiologi or psychiatric scientific proof. Now, yeah, maybe you could observ and call it "science," but you would have to stretch into the socia sciences, which are all about feelings.

    I'm not sure that "potato" is a gender, but if you're attracted to them more power to you, I guess.

    If there are multiple genders, defined by whatever one wants to imagine for themselves, you have to accept that potato could be one of them. Based on your response, you are making the common mistake that sexual attraction/ orientation = gender, which it does not.

    I don't pretend to know what people who claim to be non-traditional genders think those genders are, or what they're based on, but am not so ignorant as
    to dismiss their claims as nonsense. They're obviously going through
    something I have no concept of, and science is on it.

    Did a bag of potatoes make eyes at you? <rimshot>

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Tuesday, April 05, 2022 15:47:00
    It's a political move to ingratiate himself with conservatives, nothing more. We've got Allen West and others trying to primary Abbott, and he's got to woo that ultra-conservative crowd if he wants to remain governor.

    I suspect you are referring to governors doing that for other reasons that I am not aware of.

    Nope. He's doing it for the very reason I laid out. There was even an article about a family that invited him to dinner so that he could see that they were normal people and discuss the situation with them. They got CPS called on them.

    You didn't lay it out in such a way that I caught on that it was your
    governor, until now. In these examples it sounds like a waste of a CPS trip.

    Gender dysphoria, again, usually involves people who believe they are sex A trapped inside the body of sex B, and are clinically significantly distressed as a result. Anyone I have known of who believes that, dysphoric or not, are not fluid in that belief, i.e. they don't go from believing they are male to female to "other gender(s)" and back. They believe they are physically A and mentally/emotionally B and stick with it.

    It is fluid in that the gender they identify with may not be the gender their physical gender.

    But it is not really fluid because, once they realize how they feel, they
    don't change. Situations that are called fluid are called that because
    they likely will change. People of physical gender A who identify as
    gender B do not usually change often... back to A, no B, no now we are C... they stick to their feelings and belief.

    They are related, in that a person is not comfortable with the gender

    that society imposes on them.

    Gender roles <> gender. If I don't like my male gender roles, and chose not to accept them, I am still male-gendered but am not observing traditional male roles. Not observing those socially-defined roles does not change my gender. And since gender ROLES are socially-defined, they are (mostly) not restricted by biology or physiology.

    Mmm, not so much. It can definitely cause friction that would not be there if there were not rigid gender roles (such as who can wear a dress, for
    xample).

    It could cause friction, yes, but wearing the dress, or the pant suit, does
    not change your gender.

    Expanding to multiple genders is some way of trying to legitimize non-traditional behaviors that, so long as they are not interfering with the lives or rights of others, should probably not need that much legitimizing.

    I think you're right that it's at least partially due to that friction. So
    to a certain degree, in trying to stop it conservative society is actually encouraging it.

    Yes, and in trying to legitimize it by calling it "additional genders," non-conservatives in society are also perpetuating it. I think they call
    it a vicious circle.

    They are people who don't want to be labelled as the gender that a
    arg
    conservative society imposes on them. There are instances in nature of things having more than two, and in some cases thousands, of genders,

    also instances of living things that can change gender after having
    ee
    born.

    What other genders, besides male, female, both, and non-gendered, do these 1000-gendered beings have?

    I have no idea. I have difficulty wrapping my mind around fungal spores that apparently have 20,000 genders (not all, I don't think; just particular species). I am comfortable with my gender and have never explored other possibilities. I'm not really a hyper-aggressive, testosterone-fueled, "macho" example of my gender, nor do I wish to be, but I'm comfortable with who I am.

    Me, too, me, too, me either, and me, too.

    I am aware that some beings, including humans, are born with characteristics of both, and that other beings can change from male to female to non and (maybe) both. At most, that is four. Humans are not able to change their biological gender (on their own) as those beings can.

    We are not, that we know of. That's not to say that we can, but I believe that the science indicates that those creatures which are capable of it do not do it on a whim, but that it is triggered by environmental stressors. Perhaps we're just not stressed enough yet. ;)

    That is possible that we are not stressed enough yet. It would be an interesting tie-in to the over population discussion that you and Shawn
    were having the other day.

    The furry thing is a red herring. Conservatives have even falsely
    laim
    with an entirely straight face, that schools are installing litter
    oxe
    kids who identify as "furries."

    I have actually never heard that false-sounding claim, re: litter boxes for furry kids. I am talking about adults and was being quasi-facetious (but not entirely).

    I've heard of it, too, more as some kind of sexual practice than as a lifestyle choice. The people claiming litter boxes in schools were apparently quite serious about it.

    The litter boxes sound too far-fetched to be actually true, but I don't doubt that some believe it and, these days, it is not so far-fetched sounding as it used to be.

    However, until the people you describe have been diagnosed with a
    enui
    scientific medical condition, I don't think we should treat them as if have been. Decades ago, women wearing pantsuits to work was a
    orrendou
    upheaval of societal gender expectations, but now it's no big deal.

    Well, that actually brings me to a point. A woman wearing a pant-suit does not assume a new gender. At that time, she was going against society's view of normal gender behavior, but she is still female-gendered.

    It was considered gender-inappropriate, just as a man in drag is today by many conservatives. It certainly caused speculation as to what gender they thought they were, or were trying to be.

    It does cause speculation as to what gender they are, or why they are
    dressed that way... but it does not change their gender and, as I
    understand it, is not as related to their sexual-orientation as some might think.

    * SLMR 2.1a * Is sex in a cornfield porn on the cob?
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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to Jeff Thiele on Tuesday, April 05, 2022 15:51:00
    You may get two of these. Apparently we've exceeded the abilities of my
    QWK reader of choice.

    Jeff Thiele wrote to Mike Powell <=-

    If one were to assert to a woman that they were no longer a woman for wearing such an outfit, or while wearing one, I would not want to
    witness the results. I doubt either of us would make such a mistake. I prefer not to have the snot slapped out of me, or to be verbally abused, for making such an error.

    We live in different times today. The pantsuit women, among others,
    were pioneers for a less gender-structured future.

    Yes we do and, yes, they were, but I still would not question it to their
    face. :) If I was a man of that time, I am sure I would still have parts
    that would feel as much pain as they do now.

    If there are multiple genders, defined by whatever one wants to imagine for themselves, you have to accept that potato could be one of them.
    Based on your response, you are making the common mistake that sexual attraction/ orientation = gender, which it does not.

    I don't pretend to know what people who claim to be non-traditional genders think those genders are, or what they're based on, but am not
    so ignorant as to dismiss their claims as nonsense. They're obviously going through something I have no concept of, and science is on it.

    I don't pretend to understand it, but I also don't automatically dismiss it
    as nonsense. I still maintain that for many that are positive towards the idea, their beliefs are based more on how they feel and less about science.

    Did a bag of potatoes make eyes at you? <rimshot>

    No, but I did bake one for dinner that night!



    ... "Mmmmmmmm.....bacon..."
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