Starlink satellites sent into space by Elon Musk's SpaceX are
helping Ukrainian military drones destroy Russian tanks and
army trucks, according to a report.

A Ukrainian air reconnaissance specialist says his military has
been operating drones specially fitted with thermal cameras
that can detect Russian vehicles at night, according to the
Times of London.

The drones are equipped with anti-tank grenades that are
launched at their target.

"If we use a drone with thermal vision at night, the drone must
connect through Starlink to the artillery guy and create target
acquisition," the Ukrainian specialist told the Times of London


[Mar 21, 2022]

https://nypost.com/2022/03/21/elon-musks-starlink-satellites- helping-ukraine-drones-destroy-russian-tanks-report/


--- OpenXP 5.0.51
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August Abolins wrote to All <=-

@MSGID: <6238A623.514.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Starlink satellites sent into space by Elon Musk's SpaceX are
helping Ukrainian military drones destroy Russian tanks and
army trucks, according to a report.

A Ukrainian air reconnaissance specialist says his military has
been operating drones specially fitted with thermal cameras
that can detect Russian vehicles at night, according to the
Times of London.

The drones are equipped with anti-tank grenades that are
launched at their target.

"If we use a drone with thermal vision at night, the drone must
connect through Starlink to the artillery guy and create target acquisition," the Ukrainian specialist told the Times of London

[Mar 21, 2022]

https://nypost.com/2022/03/21/elon-musks-starlink-satellites- helping-ukraine-drones-destroy-russian-tanks-report/

That's great, companies are now fighting wars themselves. This is a worrying development as we have unaccounted for, undemocratic, rogue entities now shaping politics.

China is taking note of this, and the message here to the world (and to China) is that you can rely less on the USA, because no matter what your official political relationship with the USA is, companies will do their own thing.


Unless Elon is acting on behalf of the US government, in which case this could be construed as an act of war.

--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Hello Dennis Katsonis!

** On Wednesday 23.03.22 - 20:49, you wrote to me:

https://nypost.com/2022/03/21/elon-musks-starlink-satellites-
helping-ukraine-drones-destroy-russian-tanks-report/

That's great, companies are now fighting wars themselves.
This is a worrying development as we have unaccounted for,
undemocratic, rogue entities now shaping politics.

I wouldn't call Musk's involvement rogue.

China is taking note of this, and the message here to the
world (and to China) is that you can rely less on the USA,
because no matter what your official political
relationship with the USA is, companies will do their own
thing.

Perhaps there is such a thing as the right thing. :/

Unless Elon is acting on behalf of the US government, in
which case this couldbe construed as an act of war.

I see it as Musk just taking an initiative on humanitarian
grounds to help restore what an unwelcome aggressor has
destroyed: communications.

A gov't doing it could take too long to get organized.

It would be not different if a bunch of doctors got organized
on their own, call themselves Drs Without Borders, and go help
people with meds and medical expertise.


--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: A turtle that surfs the dark web. [o] A TORtoise (2:221/1.58)

August Abolins wrote to Dennis Katsonis <=-

@MSGID: <623B2E03.516.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
@REPLY: <623AED93.515.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Hello Dennis Katsonis!

** On Wednesday 23.03.22 - 20:49, you wrote to me:

https://nypost.com/2022/03/21/elon-musks-starlink-satellites-
helping-ukraine-drones-destroy-russian-tanks-report/

That's great, companies are now fighting wars themselves.
This is a worrying development as we have unaccounted for,
undemocratic, rogue entities now shaping politics.

I wouldn't call Musk's involvement rogue.

China is taking note of this, and the message here to the
world (and to China) is that you can rely less on the USA,
because no matter what your official political
relationship with the USA is, companies will do their own
thing.

Perhaps there is such a thing as the right thing. :/

That is not for companies to decide. Matters of international politics should be dealt by statesmen who understand diplomacy, international relations, not CEO's who think because they know how market a product, or make some money, that they can solve the worlds political problems.

This is a recipe for disaster as international relations is not beholden to these rogue actors.

I see it as Musk just taking an initiative on humanitarian
grounds to help restore what an unwelcome aggressor has
destroyed: communications.

A gov't doing it could take too long to get organized.

It would be not different if a bunch of doctors got organized
on their own, call themselves Drs Without Borders, and go help
people with meds and medical expertise.

Offering medical assistance is completely different to enabling and supporting military activities.

Russians and Chinese won't see it the way you do, which is important because they both have nukes, and the ability to defeat the US in war should one start.
This is a time to tread carefully, to negotiate a peaceful solution, but if some random CEO is going to do something which starts a conflict, we're stuffed.

--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Hello, Dennis!

Thursday March 24 2022 20:50, you wrote to August Abolins:

Perhaps there is such a thing as the right thing. :/

That is not for companies to decide. Matters of international

The whole idea that company is not free with it's own decisions is something from Socialism era.
Freedom means freedom for everyone.

Russians and Chinese won't see it the way you do, which is important because they both have nukes, and the ability to defeat the US in war should one start. This is a time to tread carefully, to negotiate a peaceful solution, but if some random CEO is going to do something
which starts a conflict, we're stuffed.

China blocked access to Facebook and Google many years ago, no nukes were launched because of that.
Russia was doing the same.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dennis!

** On Thursday 24.03.22 - 20:50, you wrote to me:

Perhaps there is such a thing as the right thing. :/

That is not for companies to decide. Matters of
international politics should be dealt by statesmen who
understand diplomacy, international relations, not CEO's
who think because they know how market a product, or make
some money, that they can solve the worlds political
problems.

I don't believe everything, specifically hardware-based
technology, has to be sanctioned by gov't before it is released
to the public. Most gov'ts don't even understand technologies.

This is a recipe for disaster as international relations
is not beholden to these rogue actors.

As far as I know, businesses are free to conduct business with
other countries as they see fit. The gov't has tarrifs and
duties that they impose.

It would be not different if a bunch of doctors got
organized on their own, call themselves Drs Without
Borders, and go help people with meds and medical
expertise.

Offering medical assistance is completely different to
enabling and supporting military activities.

Well.. conducting medical services to a soldier is just as much
as "enabling and supporting militarty activities". He gets
treated, and back he goes to fight.

Wrt, to Starlink, the internet service is just a comms system.
What users/customers do with it is THEIR doing. Criminal and
secret things get conducted over the internet all the time.

A lament on privacy from 1972..

https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4

Russians and Chinese won't see it the way you do, which is
important because they both have nukes, and the ability to
defeat the US in war should one start. This is a time to
tread carefully, to negotiate a peaceful solution, but if
some random CEO is going to do something which starts a
conflict, we're stuffed.

It is hard to know if just the Russians and Chinese can defeat
the US. No doubt all large countries have plenty of nuclear
power to cause a lot of damage. But a nuclear fight will
affect the agressor and destroy the livelyhood of many
surrounding places.

Perhaps Putin underestimated the resourcefulness of private
citizens of other countries to one-up him on severing typical
comms systems and the internet in the country that he is
blasting. The people who are either trapped in Ukraine or who
choose to stay deserve to be in touch with the outside world
and their loved ones.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: A turtle that surfs the dark web. [o] A TORtoise (2:221/1.58)

Dmitry Protasoff wrote to Dennis Katsonis <=-

@MSGID: <623C5591.518.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
@REPLY: <623C407D.517.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Hello, Dennis!

Thursday March 24 2022 20:50, you wrote to August Abolins:

Perhaps there is such a thing as the right thing. :/

That is not for companies to decide. Matters of international

The whole idea that company is not free with it's own decisions is something from Socialism era.
Freedom means freedom for everyone.

Freedom doesn't mean you can do anything you like. Also, freedom is for humans, not entities. Restricting the activities of companies is not a gross violation of freedom, your personal freedom is not impinged.

Russians and Chinese won't see it the way you do, which is important because they both have nukes, and the ability to defeat the US in war should one start. This is a time to tread carefully, to negotiate a peaceful solution, but if some random CEO is going to do something
which starts a conflict, we're stuffed.

China blocked access to Facebook and Google many years ago, no nukes
were launched because of that.
Russia was doing the same.

Best regards,
dp.

They will spin it in whatever way works best for propaganda back home. Companies acting unilaterely are an economic risk, and if China and Russia cannot remove this economic risk by political dialogue with the U.S. State, they may use this as justification for further economic action against the West, and cutting further ties.

--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: MS & RD BBS bbsweb.mozysswamp.org (3:633/384)

August Abolins wrote to Dennis Katsonis <=-

This is a recipe for disaster as international relations
is not beholden to these rogue actors.

As far as I know, businesses are free to conduct business with
other countries as they see fit. The gov't has tarrifs and
duties that they impose.

They are, but when many companies decide to cause economic harm, it has political and social ramifications, externalities. Capitalists are generally very poor when it comes to taking into account externalities.

The question isn't whether it is legal or not (it is), but whether they realise it will have greater implications than simply virtue signallying and "feeling good" about doing something.

It would be not different if a bunch of doctors got
organized on their own, call themselves Drs Without
Borders, and go help people with meds and medical
expertise.

Offering medical assistance is completely different to
enabling and supporting military activities.

Well.. conducting medical services to a soldier is just as much
as "enabling and supporting militarty activities". He gets
treated, and back he goes to fight.

Wrt, to Starlink, the internet service is just a comms system.
What users/customers do with it is THEIR doing. Criminal and
secret things get conducted over the internet all the time.

A lament on privacy from 1972..

https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4

In the West, especially the Anglosphere, we seem to think that the law is the letter of the law, and not the spirit, and if "technically" you are within it, then that is the end of it. Russia won't buy such an argument. They're not stupid.

Russians and Chinese won't see it the way you do, which is
important because they both have nukes, and the ability to
defeat the US in war should one start. This is a time to
tread carefully, to negotiate a peaceful solution, but if
some random CEO is going to do something which starts a
conflict, we're stuffed.

It is hard to know if just the Russians and Chinese can defeat
the US. No doubt all large countries have plenty of nuclear
power to cause a lot of damage. But a nuclear fight will
affect the agressor and destroy the livelyhood of many
surrounding places.

Perhaps Putin underestimated the resourcefulness of private
citizens of other countries to one-up him on severing typical
comms systems and the internet in the country that he is
blasting. The people who are either trapped in Ukraine or who
choose to stay deserve to be in touch with the outside world
and their loved ones.

I don't believe the mainstream media. They have been claiming that the war has been going badly since it started, yet Russia has taken over Ukraine at a very fast rate. They are painting a picture which would make you think that Zelensky is one day away from marching down Red Square. The mainstream narrative MUST be false, and obviously is propaganda aimed at demoralising any pro-Russian actors.

It reminds me of an apocryphal exchange in Germany at the end of WWII in Berlin.

A: How did you know that you were losing the war?

B: Our victories were getting closer and closer.

The US lost in Vietnam, lost in Afghanistan. The US doesn't really know how to fight wars because they don't know what the telos, the endgame is. How would you defeat Putin? Putin has clear objectives, what is the US going to do? March into Ukraine from the West? Not going to happen. No NATO country, or should that be, the citizenry of NATO countries are not willing to actually fight and die in Ukraine. The US can only offer indirect support and pretend it isn't doing so (Russia and China aren't fooled by this).

--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: MS & RD BBS bbsweb.mozysswamp.org (3:633/384)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Dennis!

Friday March 25 2022 21:05, you wrote to me:

The whole idea that company is not free with it's own decisions
is something from Socialism era. Freedom means freedom for
everyone.

Freedom doesn't mean you can do anything you like. Also, freedom is

Freedom for business means that you can stop serving customer who is doing some terrible things.
This is the most important thing, otherwise it will become a nightmare for every company.

Companies acting unilaterely are an economic risk, and if China and Russia cannot remove this economic risk by political dialogue with the U.S. State, they may use this as justification for further economic
action against the West, and cutting further ties.

How can you do business with Russia with Putin cannot be trusted at all? Tomorrow he'll start a war with NATO, even nuclear.
Is it wourth the risk?

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Dmitry Protasoff wrote to Dennis Katsonis <=-

@MSGID: <623DB57D.522.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
@REPLY: <623D9628.520.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Dennis!

Friday March 25 2022 21:05, you wrote to me:

The whole idea that company is not free with it's own decisions
is something from Socialism era. Freedom means freedom for
everyone.

Freedom doesn't mean you can do anything you like. Also, freedom is

Freedom for business means that you can stop serving customer who is
doing some terrible things.
This is the most important thing, otherwise it will become a nightmare
for every company.

That depends. If that "terrible thing" is the customer is simply a Christian, a Muslim, or an Atheist, or is gay, then no, you can't have a free society if people want to use economic activity on behalf of a company to exclude.

With Russia, it is more complicated. Do they have the right to stop activity of they feel they are going to stop criminal acts, or a genocide, yes, of course, but I don't think these companies are doing that. Virtue signalling isnt a good reason.

Companies acting unilaterely are an economic risk, and if China and Russia cannot remove this economic risk by political dialogue with the U.S. State, they may use this as justification for further economic
action against the West, and cutting further ties.

How can you do business with Russia with Putin cannot be trusted at
all? Tomorrow he'll start a war with NATO, even nuclear.
Is it wourth the risk?

I don't think he will. Our media is hyping this up, as they have been for, oh, the last decade or so, especially since Trump. We were told that a vote for Trump was a vote for WWIII, so forgive me if I don't take all this chatter too seriously.

I'm not saying we should, or shouldn't do business with Russia. My criticism is more at how reactionary we are. That people are making decisions without thinking of the full ramifications, of how we get out of this situation. The US went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, not sure how to actually win it. This is what is concerning here, that companies are making knee-jerk reactions, that we are cutting Russia, but why? On what terms? Are we going to resume business when they withdraw from Ukraine? When Putin goes? What is the goal? What does Russia need to do to be accepted again?

This is probably quite off topic for this echo.

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political and social ramifications, externalities. Capitalists are generally very poor when it comes to taking into account externalities.

For capitalism to really work, it needs freedom and peace and for us all to really just be one world rather than a bunch of squabling countries. If we
are divided, capitalism can't do its thing.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/02 (Windows/32)
* Origin: 8-Bit Boyz BBS! -=[ bbs.8bitboyz.com port:6502 ]=- (1:305/3)

Hello Dennis Katsonis!

** On Saturday 26.03.22 - 21:38, Dennis Katsonis wrote to Dmitry Protasoff:

[...] Are we going to resume business when they withdraw
from Ukraine? When Putin goes? What is the goal? What
does Russia need to do to be accepted again?

It truly is a shame that Putin's agenda is to disrupt internet
services and not enhance them.

This is probably quite off topic for this echo.

Thank you for accomodating that.

Segueing back on topic.. as long as the "business" is internet-
related, that's fine. No harm in discussing how countries
posture themselves wrt business ideas that affect internet.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
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Joe Phigan wrote to Dennis Katsonis <=-

@MSGID: <623F5BD1.524.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
@REPLY: <623D962A.521.fidointernet@bbs.mozysswamp.org>

political and social ramifications, externalities. Capitalists are generally very poor when it comes to taking into account externalities.

For capitalism to really work, it needs freedom and peace and for us
all to really just be one world rather than a bunch of squabling countries. If we are divided, capitalism can't do its thing.

"Capitalism" isn't what does work. People do. Capitalism is just a patter of property rights, ethics and moral norms.

The world is always going to be divided, so by that token, Capitalism will never really work?

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August Abolins wrote to Dennis Katsonis <=-

[...] Are we going to resume business when they withdraw
from Ukraine? When Putin goes? What is the goal? What
does Russia need to do to be accepted again?

It truly is a shame that Putin's agenda is to disrupt internet
services and not enhance them.

This is probably quite off topic for this echo.

Thank you for accomodating that.

Segueing back on topic.. as long as the "business" is internet-
related, that's fine. No harm in discussing how countries
posture themselves wrt business ideas that affect internet.

The Internet is just the netwok. It is not Facebook, Instagram, etc. They are just unrelated services which use the Internet infrastructure, much in the same way the old phone party hotlines were not the phone system, but merely something which used the phone system.

Banning Facebook, et al isn't really disrupting the Internetl, technically speaking.


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