• No pi stock anywhere and delivery times out to end 2023!

    From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Friday, May 13, 2022 16:43:29
    Well someone reckons this is the start of the great disintegration of
    the global economy. As fossil fuel gets so tight that no one can afford transport etc.

    "The issue of how important crude oil is to the world economy has been
    left out of most textbooks for years. Instead, we were taught creative
    myths covering several topics:

    Huge amounts of fossil fuels will be available in the future
    Climate change is our worst problem
    Wind and solar will save us
    A fast transition to an all-electric economy is possible
    Electric cars are the future
    The economy will grow forever

    Now we are running into a serious shortfall of crude oil. We can expect
    a new set of problems, including far more conflict. Wars are likely.
    Debt defaults are likely. Political parties will take increasingly
    divergent positions on how to work around current problems. News media
    will increasingly tell the narrative that their owners and advertisers
    want told, with little regard for the real situation."

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/

    Never mind learning python, have to learn how to dig potatoes.

    Happy weekend all!

    --
    I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
    ...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

    Richard Feynman

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  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Friday, May 13, 2022 18:59:51
    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well someone reckons this is the start of the great disintegration of
    the global economy. As fossil fuel gets so tight that no one can afford transport etc.


    I am not sure if this is directly related to the crude oil topic. I bet more important is the shortage of electronic components and high shipment
    prices.

    "The issue of how important crude oil is to the world economy has been
    left out of most textbooks for years. Instead, we were taught creative
    myths covering several topics:

    Huge amounts of fossil fuels will be available in the future
    Climate change is our worst problem
    Wind and solar will save us
    A fast transition to an all-electric economy is possible
    Electric cars are the future
    The economy will grow forever


    How was this said: We know that they lie to us. They know that we know. We
    know that they know that we know. And they know this and despite of it they still lie to us.

    Now we are running into a serious shortfall of crude oil. We can expect
    a new set of problems, including far more conflict. Wars are likely.
    Debt defaults are likely. Political parties will take increasingly
    divergent positions on how to work around current problems. News media
    will increasingly tell the narrative that their owners and advertisers
    want told, with little regard for the real situation."

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/

    Never mind learning python, have to learn how to dig potatoes.

    It is not so simple ... you need also land. It is worst case - really. If
    you have to grow potatoes the revolution would be already over.
    It all reminds me of Erich Maria Remarque somehow ... but people forgot
    reading good books.


    Happy weekend all!


    Same to you

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Deloptes on Friday, May 13, 2022 17:44:58
    On 2022-05-13, Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well someone reckons this is the start of the great disintegration of
    the global economy. As fossil fuel gets so tight that no one can afford
    transport etc.

    I am not sure if this is directly related to the crude oil topic. I bet more important is the shortage of electronic components and high shipment
    prices.

    "The issue of how important crude oil is to the world economy has been
    left out of most textbooks for years. Instead, we were taught creative
    myths covering several topics:

    Huge amounts of fossil fuels will be available in the future
    Climate change is our worst problem
    Wind and solar will save us
    A fast transition to an all-electric economy is possible
    Electric cars are the future
    The economy will grow forever

    Population can and must grow forever

    How was this said: We know that they lie to us. They know that we know. We know that they know that we know. And they know this and despite of it they still lie to us.

    This comes down to what I've heard referred to as "trout management":
    Dangle something shiny with a hook in it in front of them,
    and they'll strike every time.

    There's a sucker born every minute.
    -- P.T. Barnum

    Now we are running into a serious shortfall of crude oil. We can expect
    a new set of problems, including far more conflict. Wars are likely.
    Debt defaults are likely. Political parties will take increasingly
    divergent positions on how to work around current problems. News media
    will increasingly tell the narrative that their owners and advertisers
    want told, with little regard for the real situation."

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/

    Never mind learning python, have to learn how to dig potatoes.

    It is not so simple ... you need also land. It is worst case - really. If
    you have to grow potatoes the revolution would be already over.
    It all reminds me of Erich Maria Remarque somehow ... but people forgot reading good books.

    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
    -- Edward Abbey

    Happy weekend all!

    Same to you

    And you.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Friday, May 13, 2022 19:27:51
    On 13 May 2022 at 16:43:29 BST, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Never mind learning python, have to learn how to dig potatoes.

    Fuck Python.

    --
    Tim

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to Deloptes on Saturday, May 14, 2022 10:20:21
    Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well someone reckons this is the start of the great disintegration of
    the global economy. As fossil fuel gets so tight that no one can afford
    transport etc.

    I am not sure if this is directly related to the crude oil topic. I bet more important is the shortage of electronic components and high shipment
    prices.

    At heart the problem is that the Pi's are too cheap. If they priced
    them according to traditional supply/demand economic rules then
    they would have just increased the prices to compensate. In fact
    Pi retailers do that anyway by bundling in over-priced extras, but
    because the cheap deal on the board alone is theoretically still
    there, us buyers are tempted to seek that out.

    If you went into a store wanting to buy a new TV, you wouldn't be
    hunting around to try and find the one being sold without a remote
    and cables at 1/3rd the price, would you? Nevertheless they've
    probably got the same sort of high profit margins on those TVs that
    Pi sellers have on their bundles, you just haven't got a company
    like the Pi Foundation (or whatever their business arm is now
    called) telling you what you _should_ be paying.

    So when you can't buy TVs, _that's_ the end of the civilisation. :)

    Not that I object to fixed pricing on board-only Pi sales, I think
    it's great. You just need to be realistic about it.

    Now we are running into a serious shortfall of crude oil. We can expect
    a new set of problems, including far more conflict. Wars are likely.
    Debt defaults are likely. Political parties will take increasingly
    divergent positions on how to work around current problems. News media
    will increasingly tell the narrative that their owners and advertisers
    want told, with little regard for the real situation."

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/

    Never mind learning python, have to learn how to dig potatoes.

    It is not so simple ... you need also land. It is worst case - really. If
    you have to grow potatoes the revolution would be already over.

    If someone really believes in all this, then they should invest in
    oil companies and buy the land with their profits.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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  • From Theo@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Saturday, May 14, 2022 05:19:02
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
    At heart the problem is that the Pi's are too cheap. If they priced
    them according to traditional supply/demand economic rules then
    they would have just increased the prices to compensate. In fact
    Pi retailers do that anyway by bundling in over-priced extras, but
    because the cheap deal on the board alone is theoretically still
    there, us buyers are tempted to seek that out.

    It's not really related to that. It's because of supply chain problems with component parts. The parts themselves are often not that notable, but
    without basic things like voltage regulators you can't ship product. It is also nontrivial to redesign for a different part that you *do* have in stock.

    This same problem affects products all across the marketplace. The problem
    is that that those $0.10 voltage regulators are also used in things like
    car brake controllers, and you can't ship a car if the brakes don't work.

    No amount of supply and demand economics will fix this. It takes several
    years to build a new semiconductor fab and the existing ones are running
    flat out, so people can't just respond to the market demand and build more parts.

    You also can't increase prices to compete - if the competition for that
    $0.10 part is GM producing $50,000 cars, there's no way you can get any
    stock to compete.

    As it is, semiconductor vendors are locked into supply contracts so it's not strictly a case of who has the most money gets the most parts. But it makes
    it very hard to plan production unless you can put in new supply agreements
    in place a long way ahead - but that's hard to do if you can't accurately
    know your demand.

    It is made worse by everyone scrambling around trying to source their parts from anywhere, with the result that people are placing three orders in the
    hope of one being fulfilled soon, but then eventually they have a surplus of parts hanging around in their inventory. So demand is actually worse than
    what manufacturers really need.

    Doubling the price of a Pi would slacken off demand for Pis a bit, but ultimately it would not get them made any faster. It will take slacking off the world demand for semiconductors before things get better.

    Nothing to do with the price of oil, by the way.

    Theo

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to Theo on Saturday, May 14, 2022 15:58:30
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
    At heart the problem is that the Pi's are too cheap. If they priced
    them according to traditional supply/demand economic rules then
    they would have just increased the prices to compensate. In fact
    Pi retailers do that anyway by bundling in over-priced extras, but
    because the cheap deal on the board alone is theoretically still
    there, us buyers are tempted to seek that out.
    [snip]
    Doubling the price of a Pi would slacken off demand for Pis a bit, but ultimately it would not get them made any faster. It will take slacking off the world demand for semiconductors before things get better.

    Yes good points. I didn't mean to suggest that increasing the price
    would allow more to be manufactured, only that the ones that are
    being manufactured are going into bundles with over-priced
    accessories rather being sold on their own because the Pi
    Foundation sets a fixed retail price for the boards that doesn't
    reflect the shortage.

    People keep saying that they can't buy a Pi, but in Australia there
    have always been stockists of bundles, it's just that people demand
    stock at the board-only price. Similarly there have always been
    Chinese sellers offering Pis at marked-up prices on Aliexpress and
    Alibaba, though I'm not sure how legit those are (the reviews seem
    convincing). So it's not that you can't get them, just that the
    board-only price doesn't incentivise retailers to keep them in
    stock when supply is restricted.

    PS. I know the Pi quantities are very high, and there's a lag
    between component stock and boards on shelves, but the voltage
    regulator used in the Pi Zero W doesn't seem all that scarce at
    the moment
    http://www.findchips.com/search/PAM2306AYPKE

    As I understand it the more high-tech chips requiring more
    advanced manufacturing processes are suffering the most because
    there aren't so many facilities that can make them. Hence
    things like microcontrollers have been out of stock, and
    presumably also the SoCs used in stuff like the Pis.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Theo on Saturday, May 14, 2022 08:04:52
    On 14 May 2022 05:19:02 +0100 (BST)
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    It's not really related to that. It's because of supply chain problems
    with component parts. The parts themselves are often not that notable,
    but without basic things like voltage regulators you can't ship product.
    It is also nontrivial to redesign for a different part that you *do* have
    in stock.

    There is also a global shortage of available shipping containers
    caused by the pandemic and slowly getting resolved. This has resulted in
    many delays and price increases (supply and demand means containers are a
    lot more expensive than they were) and probably has more to do with Pi board shortage than the semiconductor shortages.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Saturday, May 14, 2022 11:59:58
    On 14/05/2022 01:20, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well someone reckons this is the start of the great disintegration of
    the global economy. As fossil fuel gets so tight that no one can afford
    transport etc.

    I am not sure if this is directly related to the crude oil topic. I bet more >> important is the shortage of electronic components and high shipment
    prices.

    At heart the problem is that the Pi's are too cheap. If they priced
    them according to traditional supply/demand economic rules then
    they would have just increased the prices to compensate.

    People are selling them on ebay for over £200 ($240).
    At that price I might as well pick up a complete refurbed desktop Intel
    PC...

    In fact
    Pi retailers do that anyway by bundling in over-priced extras, but
    because the cheap deal on the board alone is theoretically still
    there, us buyers are tempted to seek that out.

    If you went into a store wanting to buy a new TV, you wouldn't be
    hunting around to try and find the one being sold without a remote
    and cables at 1/3rd the price, would you? Nevertheless they've
    probably got the same sort of high profit margins on those TVs that
    Pi sellers have on their bundles, you just haven't got a company
    like the Pi Foundation (or whatever their business arm is now
    called) telling you what you _should_ be paying.

    So when you can't buy TVs, _that's_ the end of the civilisation. :)

    Not that I object to fixed pricing on board-only Pi sales, I think
    it's great. You just need to be realistic about it.

    Now we are running into a serious shortfall of crude oil. We can expect
    a new set of problems, including far more conflict. Wars are likely.
    Debt defaults are likely. Political parties will take increasingly
    divergent positions on how to work around current problems. News media
    will increasingly tell the narrative that their owners and advertisers
    want told, with little regard for the real situation."

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/

    Never mind learning python, have to learn how to dig potatoes.

    It is not so simple ... you need also land. It is worst case - really. If
    you have to grow potatoes the revolution would be already over.

    If someone really believes in all this, then they should invest in
    oil companies and buy the land with their profits.

    I'm trying...

    --
    Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
    guns, why should we let them have ideas?

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Theo on Saturday, May 14, 2022 12:22:16
    On 14/05/2022 05:19, Theo wrote:
    Doubling the price of a Pi would slacken off demand for Pis a bit, but ultimately it would not get them made any faster. It will take slacking off the world demand for semiconductors before things get better.

    Nothing to do with the price of oil, by the way.

    I think you are over hasty there: all pricing of *costs* (not talking
    retails) boils down to how many man hours are in there, what they cost,
    and the profit being made down the supply chain. If people need to make
    more because oil prices are up, and they need oil, then up goes the
    price of EVERYTHING.

    And if there isn't enough oil to go round, then the least profitable
    businesses that need energy will simply shut down until supply can meet
    demand at a higher price.

    I think this is essentially what 'stagflation' is - everything gets more expensive and the economy shrinks. Essentially you produce less and it
    cost more, because down the end of the chain oil assets are making
    fortunes for rasPutin and Sheikh Yamoni Makah, and they aren't pumping
    any extra.

    And the net result is that London is full of Mosques and Russian thugs/oligarchs, with leather jackets, Ukrainian whores and guns.

    USA with its own coal oil and gas is a bit insulated from all this. So far.

    I think covid/lockdown sent a shock to the oil markets, and the oil
    markets are sending a shock everywhere else. Maybe the Ukraine invasion
    is also symptomatic of issues inside the Russian bear we are not aware
    of. Certainly people are talking of a complete meltdown in the Chinese
    economy. And that's why they need a war. To distract from all that and
    have something other than their own management to blame it on.

    Power geopolitics is very dirty and very nasty.

    Anyway that means that little businesses that cant afford expensive
    energy will simply stop working, and its surprising how many crucial
    bits are made not in huge factories, but in smaller businesses.

    I am seriously expecting the worst year of my long life economically as
    all these things play out. Wars and political turmoil, as those in power attempt to suppress those who are asking 'how could you let this happen?'

    (To which the answer is as always, "well we took all the power and
    taxes and exercised all the authority, but we really weren't in control
    of anything, we just pretended we were").

    --
    Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Theo@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Saturday, May 14, 2022 15:06:59
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 14/05/2022 05:19, Theo wrote:
    Doubling the price of a Pi would slacken off demand for Pis a bit, but ultimately it would not get them made any faster. It will take slacking off the world demand for semiconductors before things get better.

    Nothing to do with the price of oil, by the way.

    I think you are over hasty there: all pricing of *costs* (not talking retails) boils down to how many man hours are in there, what they cost,
    and the profit being made down the supply chain. If people need to make
    more because oil prices are up, and they need oil, then up goes the
    price of EVERYTHING.

    Yes, but this is not an inflationary shock, it's a supply-side shock.

    If the price of your input commodities like oil goes up, you have to raise
    the prices of your products. But you can still make the same products you
    did before, as long as they sell at the higher prices.

    If you can't get the parts for your products, it doesn't matter how much
    money you have or what you price your products at, you can't make any.

    (unless you're a trillionaire and can build your own entire supply chain
    from scratch, but even that takes years)

    Theo

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Theo on Saturday, May 14, 2022 23:13:22
    On 14/05/2022 15:06, Theo wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 14/05/2022 05:19, Theo wrote:
    Doubling the price of a Pi would slacken off demand for Pis a bit, but
    ultimately it would not get them made any faster. It will take slacking >>> off the world demand for semiconductors before things get better.

    Nothing to do with the price of oil, by the way.

    I think you are over hasty there: all pricing of *costs* (not talking
    retails) boils down to how many man hours are in there, what they cost,
    and the profit being made down the supply chain. If people need to make
    more because oil prices are up, and they need oil, then up goes the
    price of EVERYTHING.

    Yes, but this is not an inflationary shock, it's a supply-side shock.

    If the price of your input commodities like oil goes up, you have to raise the prices of your products. But you can still make the same products you did before, as long as they sell at the higher prices.

    If you can't get the parts for your products, it doesn't matter how much money you have or what you price your products at, you can't make any.

    (unless you're a trillionaire and can build your own entire supply chain
    from scratch, but even that takes years)

    Theo
    I have ssen an article that claims that it is less supply sidee shock
    than preferential customer treatment. Pis are used commercially and that
    is who is being supplied on contract - us hobbyists get what's left
    over, essentially


    --
    WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

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  • From scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us@3:770/3 to Theo on Sunday, May 15, 2022 01:50:12
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    It's not really related to that. It's because of supply chain problems with component parts. The parts themselves are often not that notable, but without basic things like voltage regulators you can't ship product. It is also nontrivial to redesign for a different part that you *do* have in stock.

    This same problem affects products all across the marketplace. The problem is that that those $0.10 voltage regulators are also used in things like
    car brake controllers, and you can't ship a car if the brakes don't work.

    Here's an example of what issues you can run across when doing such a substitution:

    https://frame.work/blog/solving-for-silicon-shortages

    --
    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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  • From A. Dumas@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sunday, May 15, 2022 09:08:39
    On 15-05-2022 00:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    I have ssen an article that claims that it is less supply sidee shock
    than preferential customer treatment. Pis are used commercially and that
    is who is being supplied on contract - us hobbyists get what's left
    over, essentially

    Yes, that was straight from Ze Big Boss: https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/production-and-supply-chain-update/

    "We spend a lot of time on backlog management. We have to balance volume
    demand from commercial and industrial customers with the demand we see
    from individuals. Right now we feel the right thing to do is to
    prioritise commercial and industrial customers – the people who need Raspberry Pis to run their businesses – we’re acutely aware that
    people’s livelihoods are at stake. There is currently enough supply to
    meet the needs of those customers. (Read to the end if you’re in this position and are struggling.) Unfortunately this comes at the cost of constrained supply for individual customer, who might be looking to buy
    a small number for home projects or for prototyping."

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  • From Theo@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sunday, May 15, 2022 12:12:08
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I have ssen an article that claims that it is less supply sidee shock
    than preferential customer treatment. Pis are used commercially and that
    is who is being supplied on contract - us hobbyists get what's left
    over, essentially

    The supply side shock is industry-wide. It affects *everyone*, not just
    Pis, which are an insignificant product line in the grand scheme of things.

    This is why the price of new and used cars is through the roof because there aren't many new ones being made, despite strong consumer demand.

    If you have limited production volume, you have to decide where to
    prioritise selling the units you have. For example Google didn't launch the Pixel 5a phone anywhere except US and Japan - not worth launching a phone
    you can't make enough of. Auto manufacturers like Tesla and GM are building more premium product because, if you can only build a small number of cars, might as well build $70,000 cars not $30,000 cars.

    If it was simply inflationary, GM would just pay the doubled price of the
    $0.10 part and add it onto their costs. Nobody cares if their car is now priced at $30,000.10. But lack of parts means you can't build the car at
    any price (and recertifying to use different parts is extremely costly).

    In the Pi case, the Pi folks are picking who to supply to based on this downstream equation. If the Pi is used industrially as a component in some bigger product, better to allow that product to ship and suffer the hobbyist whose use is essentially discretionary.

    Theo

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Sunday, May 15, 2022 11:43:57
    On 15 May 2022 at 12:12:08 BST, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
    wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I have ssen an article that claims that it is less supply sidee shock
    than preferential customer treatment. Pis are used commercially and that
    is who is being supplied on contract - us hobbyists get what's left
    over, essentially

    The supply side shock is industry-wide. It affects *everyone*, not just
    Pis, which are an insignificant product line in the grand scheme of things.

    Why is there this chip/fab shortage? For sunflower oil it's rather more clear ...

    --
    Tim

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to TimS on Sunday, May 15, 2022 14:02:00
    On 15 May 2022 11:43:57 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    On 15 May 2022 at 12:12:08 BST, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I have ssen an article that claims that it is less supply sidee shock
    than preferential customer treatment. Pis are used commercially and
    that is who is being supplied on contract - us hobbyists get what's
    left over, essentially

    The supply side shock is industry-wide. It affects *everyone*, not just Pis, which are an insignificant product line in the grand scheme of
    things.

    Why is there this chip/fab shortage? For sunflower oil it's rather more
    clear ...

    There's a shortage of shipping containers - fall out from the
    pandemic - which has jacked up the price of them a *lot*. Which means
    there's a shortage of *everything* that has to be shipped *and* everything costs more to ship which gets passed on or swallowed hitting profits hard.

    There also aren't enough high end 7nm fabs (they're rather
    expensive to build) to meet the demand, but that's another problem that
    only affects high end chips like big memory chips and the top end
    processors.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Theo@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Sunday, May 15, 2022 18:56:21
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
    PS. I know the Pi quantities are very high, and there's a lag
    between component stock and boards on shelves, but the voltage
    regulator used in the Pi Zero W doesn't seem all that scarce at
    the moment
    http://www.findchips.com/search/PAM2306AYPKE

    Manufacturers run pick and place lines with reels of parts, in that case a
    reel is 3000. Most of the vendors there don't have enough parts for a full reel - you can't run much of a production line with a part reel.

    Digikey has 125k. But the Pi sells 500k a month, ie 125k a week.
    So that's enough for a week's worth of units. Not to be sniffed at, but not
    a long term solution.

    As I understand it the more high-tech chips requiring more
    advanced manufacturing processes are suffering the most because
    there aren't so many facilities that can make them. Hence
    things like microcontrollers have been out of stock, and
    presumably also the SoCs used in stuff like the Pis.

    Pi4 is 28nm, the other Pis are 40nm. That's pretty mature these days (a
    decade or more old). I'm not sure what regular microcontroller parts are fabbed on - maybe 65 or 90nm? But anyway, the Pi is not on the same lines
    as the latest 7nm chips for phones or laptops.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Theo@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sunday, May 15, 2022 18:50:14
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On 15 May 2022 11:43:57 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    Why is there this chip/fab shortage? For sunflower oil it's rather more clear ...

    There is a pandemic. It seemed like there was going to be major downturn,
    so manufacturers like auto makers thought they were going to sell less
    product. As a result they cancelled their chip orders. However, stimulus money dropped from governments which kept economies afloat. At the same
    time there was extra demand for WFH and home-school equipment like laptops,
    as well as cars (safer than taking the bus). So not only did demand not
    drop off, it increased. That combined with COVID lockdowns (eg Shanghai at
    the moment), staff off due to COVID, and difficulty of social distancing
    inside facilities, meant production was additionally constrained.

    The result was that JIT fell apart. As manufacturers saw they couldn't get parts on a JIT basis they started building inventory, which was previously
    very slim. Additionally, due to the vagaries of supply manufacturers
    started hoarding: not just place an order for next week's parts, place an
    order for the next year's parts and place it with three suppliers in the
    hope that one will fulfill.

    There's a shortage of shipping containers - fall out from the pandemic - which has jacked up the price of them a *lot*. Which means
    there's a shortage of *everything* that has to be shipped *and* everything costs more to ship which gets passed on or swallowed hitting profits hard.

    That's not really relevant for parts which are air freighted, which tiny
    chips are likely to be. Although there was a point at which air freight capacity was restricted due to lack of passenger flights.

    There also aren't enough high end 7nm fabs (they're rather
    expensive to build) to meet the demand, but that's another problem that
    only affects high end chips like big memory chips and the top end
    processors.

    While there was tightness at top-end fabs due to demand for laptops etc, a
    lot of the parts we've been having difficulty getting are more basic: microcontrollers, analogue parts, ethernet chips, etc. People like TI and Microchip were very badly affected. I can't say I noticed a tightness in memory chips, which are commoditised and on different processes from others, but maybe there was.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Sunday, May 15, 2022 18:27:57
    On 15 May 2022 at 18:50:14 BST, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
    wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On 15 May 2022 11:43:57 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    Why is there this chip/fab shortage? For sunflower oil it's rather more
    clear ...

    [snip info]

    While there was tightness at top-end fabs due to demand for laptops etc, a lot of the parts we've been having difficulty getting are more basic: microcontrollers, analogue parts, ethernet chips, etc. People like TI and Microchip were very badly affected. I can't say I noticed a tightness in memory chips, which are commoditised and on different processes from others, but maybe there was.

    Thanks for the info, guys. Is this likely to ease any time soon? Probably not if JIT has gone.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to Theo on Monday, May 16, 2022 09:09:14
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
    PS. I know the Pi quantities are very high, and there's a lag
    between component stock and boards on shelves, but the voltage
    regulator used in the Pi Zero W doesn't seem all that scarce at
    the moment
    http://www.findchips.com/search/PAM2306AYPKE

    Manufacturers run pick and place lines with reels of parts, in that case a reel is 3000. Most of the vendors there don't have enough parts for a full reel - you can't run much of a production line with a part reel.

    Digikey has 125k. But the Pi sells 500k a month, ie 125k a week.
    So that's enough for a week's worth of units. Not to be sniffed at, but not a long term solution.

    Given the quantities, they probably order the regulator chip
    directly from manufacturer (they obviously do for the SoCs) anyway.
    But you wouldn't expect chip manufacturers to preference supplying
    distributors over big device manufacturers, and if they did you'd
    expect distributor stock to sell out quickly - not have over a
    hundred thousand sitting around in stock.

    As I understand it the more high-tech chips requiring more
    advanced manufacturing processes are suffering the most because
    there aren't so many facilities that can make them. Hence
    things like microcontrollers have been out of stock, and
    presumably also the SoCs used in stuff like the Pis.

    Pi4 is 28nm, the other Pis are 40nm. That's pretty mature these days (a decade or more old). I'm not sure what regular microcontroller parts are fabbed on - maybe 65 or 90nm? But anyway, the Pi is not on the same lines
    as the latest 7nm chips for phones or laptops.

    For sure. It would be interesting to know more about chip
    manufacturer capacities, but much of the info is likely to be
    considered trade secrets. 40nm may be mature, but does it still
    cost much more to build a 40nm fab than a 90nm fab?

    Anyway stock of simpler devices like voltage regulators and logic
    chips doesn't seem to have been nearly so badly affected as
    microcontrollers. Which suggests to me that not every modern chip
    fab is able to pump out the more advanced chips, or else stock
    would have become more constrained across the board as they all
    switched to making the chips that were selling out. But there are
    a lot of factors at play, no doubt there's more to it than that.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Dennis Lee Bieber@3:770/3 to All on Sunday, May 15, 2022 19:56:36
    On 16 May 2022 09:09:14 +1000, not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) declaimed the following:

    For sure. It would be interesting to know more about chip
    manufacturer capacities, but much of the info is likely to be
    considered trade secrets. 40nm may be mature, but does it still
    cost much more to build a 40nm fab than a 90nm fab?


    Most foundries are designed for a standard size wafer. That wafer might hold, say, 100 of your voltage regulators, but only 25 larger complex processors. Now, if you assume, again just for example, that there may be a surface defect per n^2 millimeters -- these defects might mean you lose two
    or three voltage regulators per wafer (97% good yield), but losing two processors results in just a 92% good yield... with a particularly bad
    batch of wafers, with defects distributed across the entire wafer (rather
    than all in one sector) one may still get 50% yield on voltage regulators,
    but only 4-8% yield on processors.


    --
    Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From F. W.@3:770/3 to All on Monday, May 16, 2022 11:15:14
    Am 13.05.2022 um 17:43 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

    Well someone reckons this is the start of the great disintegration
    of the global economy. As fossil fuel gets so tight that no one can
    afford transport etc.

    I own a Pi 400, a Pi Zero and a Pico.

    Should I put it in the bay and retire? ;-)

    FW

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to F. W. on Monday, May 16, 2022 11:47:34
    On 16/05/2022 10:15, F. W. wrote:
    Am 13.05.2022 um 17:43 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

    Well someone reckons this is the start of the great disintegration
    of the global economy. As fossil fuel gets so tight that no one can
    afford transport etc.

    I own a Pi 400, a Pi Zero and a Pico.

    Should I put it in the bay and retire? ;-)

    Maybe. Its probably $1000 if you do.

    FW


    --
    Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
    doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
    don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 08:29:26
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 16/05/2022 10:15, F. W. wrote:

    I own a Pi 400, a Pi Zero and a Pico.

    Should I put it in the bay and retire? ;-)

    Maybe. Its probably $1000 if you do.

    You'd triple your money just buying kits from official stockists
    here in Aus and selling them there if that were the case.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Computer Nerd Kev on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 11:18:46
    On 16/05/2022 23:29, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 16/05/2022 10:15, F. W. wrote:

    I own a Pi 400, a Pi Zero and a Pico.

    Should I put it in the bay and retire? ;-)

    Maybe. Its probably $1000 if you do.

    You'd triple your money just buying kits from official stockists
    here in Aus and selling them there if that were the case.

    No official stockist I found anywhere in the world had stock

    If you have access to stock, buy it and resell it

    --
    When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
    the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
    authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

    Frédéric Bastiat

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 09:20:14
    On a sunny day (Sun, 15 May 2022 01:50:12 GMT) it happened scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote in <o%YfK.5034$tTK.1603@fx97.iad>:

    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    It's not really related to that. It's because of supply chain problems with >> component parts. The parts themselves are often not that notable, but
    without basic things like voltage regulators you can't ship product. It is >> also nontrivial to redesign for a different part that you *do* have in stock.

    This same problem affects products all across the marketplace. The problem >> is that that those $0.10 voltage regulators are also used in things like
    car brake controllers, and you can't ship a car if the brakes don't work.

    Here's an example of what issues you can run across when doing such a >substitution:

    https://frame.work/blog/solving-for-silicon-shortages

    Just imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM (Electro Magnetic) impulse
    is caused by nuke detonation in the upper atmosphere.
    Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars smartphones, what not) will work anymore.
    Your only chance of transport is the old diesel (if you can get one and fuel). I think it is a big mistake to rely on chips everywhere given the tendency of humans to make wars for profit
    or robbery.
    Not even mentioning the electric grid getting hit by hackers or bombs.
    No emergency services as those are electric too.
    No lights no cooking no food.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 11:21:27
    On 17/05/2022 10:20, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ust imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM (Electro Magnetic) impulse
    is caused by nuke detonation in the upper atmosphere.
    Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars smartphones, what not) will work anymore.

    That is absolutely not a given.

    Many circuits that are not on and in relatively shielded enclosures
    would survive. As would all passive fibre optics and many chips simply
    in storage.


    Your only chance of transport is the old diesel (if you can get one and fuel).
    I think it is a big mistake to rely on chips everywhere given the tendency of humans to make wars for profit
    or robbery.
    Not even mentioning the electric grid getting hit by hackers or bombs.
    No emergency services as those are electric too.
    No lights no cooking no food.

    Well we could always go back to valves (tubes)

    --
    When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
    the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
    authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

    Frédéric Bastiat

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 11:07:52
    On a sunny day (Tue, 17 May 2022 11:21:27 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t5vsv7$jc1$8@dont-email.me>:

    On 17/05/2022 10:20, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ust imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM (Electro Magnetic) impulse
    is caused by nuke detonation in the upper atmosphere.
    Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars smartphones, what not) will work anymore.

    That is absolutely not a given.

    Many circuits that are not on and in relatively shielded enclosures
    would survive. As would all passive fibre optics and many chips simply
    in storage.

    Some, I had a metal box with some transistors in the sixties, next to my powerful ham radio transmitter
    The RF transistors no longer worked.
    But that was a lot of Watts.
    Even if some survive, and you have your sun powered soldering iron,
    modern things like stupid-phones etc are not so easy to fix.



    Your only chance of transport is the old diesel (if you can get one and fuel).
    I think it is a big mistake to rely on chips everywhere given the tendency of humans to make wars for profit
    or robbery.
    Not even mentioning the electric grid getting hit by hackers or bombs.
    No emergency services as those are electric too.
    No lights no cooking no food.

    Well we could always go back to valves (tubes)

    I have done lots of design with tubes, pity I do not have any anymore.. OTOH no heater no power sucking.

    I do think not many people keep their smartphone in a metal box, doing it with your car keys against hackers does help.
    No more bank cards that work after the EMP, no more cash..

    But not much use anyways when there are no radio and TV stations around anymore.
    One way to hear from the rest of the world is shortwave of via ham satellite (QO100) perhaps.

    Was reading UK fish and chip stands may disappear too...
    Now THAT would be bad!


    When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
    the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
    authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

    Indeed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From RJH@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 11:09:08
    On 17 May 2022 at 11:21:27 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/05/2022 10:20, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ust imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM (Electro >> Magnetic) impulse
    is caused by nuke detonation in the upper atmosphere.
    Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars smartphones, what not) will
    work anymore.

    That is absolutely not a given.

    Many circuits that are not on and in relatively shielded enclosures
    would survive. As would all passive fibre optics and many chips simply
    in storage.


    Oh good, that's OK then.

    :-)

    --
    Cheers, Rob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 17:29:51
    On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:20:14 GMT
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Just imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM
    (Electro Magnetic) impulse is caused by nuke detonation in the upper atmosphere. Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars
    smartphones, what not) will work anymore. Your only chance of transport
    is the old diesel (if you can get one and fuel).

    These are the *small* problems - oh and that old diesel, does it
    have a hand crank to start it and are you built like Charles Atlas ?

    The larger problems will be. Are you safe from fallout ? Do you have clean land to grow food in ? Do you have uncontaminated seeds ? Do you have enough to survive until they grow ? Is there a viable concentration of
    people with all of this anywhere on the planet ? Are you in one of them ?

    If there's a single no in all of that in the event of nuclear war
    then follow these simple instructions:

    Bend over, place your head between your knees and kiss your arse goodbye.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Shot on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 17:34:17
    On a sunny day (Tue, 17 May 2022 17:29:51 +0100) it happened Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in <20220517172951.e653c8d834ce0ab42801d835@eircom.net>:

    On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:20:14 GMT
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Just imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM
    (Electro Magnetic) impulse is caused by nuke detonation in the upper
    atmosphere. Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars
    smartphones, what not) will work anymore. Your only chance of transport
    is the old diesel (if you can get one and fuel).

    These are the *small* problems - oh and that old diesel, does it
    have a hand crank to start it and are you built like Charles Atlas ?

    LOL, yes, I have hand-cranked my old car..

    The larger problems will be. Are you safe from fallout ? Do you have
    clean land to grow food in ? Do you have uncontaminated seeds ? Do you have >enough to survive until they grow ? Is there a viable concentration of
    people with all of this anywhere on the planet ? Are you in one of them ?

    It depends, I had BIG fear for nuclear, then later I worked in that field a while
    always found them careless, a year after I left that whole place got contaminated..
    But really, we had Chernobyl fallout here, do not eat stuff from your garden air filters from the aircos where I worked had to be replaced as those were hot.
    I measure radiation 24/7 these days. have designed and build a gamma spectrometer, its sitting next to me..

    Really, it is not all that bad, wildlife at Chernobyl is thriving, mainly because no humans
    are there to kill it.
    I have some iodine pills and a few month of food.. including emergency for on the boat.
    After that I will have to hunt or fish, have a special water filter, may buy a de-salinator.


    If there's a single no in all of that in the event of nuclear war
    then follow these simple instructions:

    Bend over, place your head between your knees and kiss your arse
    goodbye.

    Oh, that is so silly, most normal people have a will to live, not a death wish. The Humming Beans will find a way.
    Sure, civilization as we know it may disappear, like the Maya and many other civilizations and empires
    Maybe hundreds if not thousands years later archaeologists in those days will dig up your smartphone
    and wonder 'how did they make that?' like we now wonder about the pyramids..

    I remember that interview with that Russian guy near Chernobyl who had a head from some dear on the wall
    the head was very radioactive. Reporter asked him: 'Are you not afraid of that radiation coming from that head?
    He answered 'Its good for your cancer'.
    :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to patchmoney@gmx.com on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 17:34:51
    On a sunny day (Tue, 17 May 2022 11:09:08 -0000 (UTC)) it happened RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in <t5vvok$dni$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 17 May 2022 at 11:21:27 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" ><tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/05/2022 10:20, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ust imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM (Electro
    Magnetic) impulse
    is caused by nuke detonation in the upper atmosphere.
    Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars smartphones, what not) will
    work anymore.

    That is absolutely not a given.

    Many circuits that are not on and in relatively shielded enclosures
    would survive. As would all passive fibre optics and many chips simply
    in storage.


    Oh good, that's OK then.

    :-)

    There are no 'passive' fiber optics links.
    there are send and receive semiconductor based units at each end,
    and the same for any repeaters.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 17:46:21
    On 17 May 2022 at 18:34:17 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    I remember that interview with that Russian guy near Chernobyl who had a head from some deer on the wall;
    the head was very radioactive. Reporter asked him: 'Are you not afraid of that radiation coming from that head?'

    Typical ignorant journo. How does he know *what* radiation is coming from it? Unless it is gamma, you can ignore it. Unless he eats the head, of course, in which case take care.

    Same with polonium-210. Gives off alpha particles which a sheet of paper will stop. Quite safe inside a glass bottle, just don't eat it.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 20:00:55
    On 17/05/2022 17:29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:20:14 GMT
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Just imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM
    (Electro Magnetic) impulse is caused by nuke detonation in the upper
    atmosphere. Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars
    smartphones, what not) will work anymore. Your only chance of transport
    is the old diesel (if you can get one and fuel).

    These are the *small* problems - oh and that old diesel, does it
    have a hand crank to start it and are you built like Charles Atlas ?

    The larger problems will be. Are you safe from fallout ?

    In fact if you survive the heat flash and the detonation, you are very
    unlikely to die of fallout.

    There is quite a narrow band between 'death from pother causes and
    survival in which radiation poisoning occurs

    Do you have
    clean land to grow food in ? Do you have uncontaminated seeds ? Do you have enough to survive until they grow ? Is there a viable concentration of
    people with all of this anywhere on the planet ? Are you in one of them ?

    Well fundamentally the fall out issue is massively overhyped. The
    waorld is awash with natural radiation and people wont die in droves
    from eating mushrooms with xenon sauce.

    If there's a single no in all of that in the event of nuclear war
    then follow these simple instructions:

    Bend over, place your head between your knees and kiss your arse goodbye.

    All very silly and 60s peacenik

    If they say a nuke is on the way, switch off your electricity and sit in
    the largest piece of masonry you can find.

    If you are outside the direct blast zone you will survive and so will
    most of your kit.

    Japan never cleaned up Nagasaki or Hiroshima, and people, once the post explosion radiation cases had died relatively quickly, did not die of
    cancer, much more than they would have anyway.

    Remember you have been lied to about almost everything all your life.
    Nuclear explosions have their limits, but it suited Russians and their
    agents to build the fear up so the West wouldn't use them. And US oil
    and gas interests were perfectly happy to ensure nuclear power would not
    be in competition.


    --
    Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
    guns, why should we let them have ideas?

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 19:51:53
    On 17/05/2022 18:34, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Tue, 17 May 2022 11:09:08 -0000 (UTC)) it happened RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in <t5vvok$dni$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 17 May 2022 at 11:21:27 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/05/2022 10:20, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ust imagine what will happen in case of nuclear war when a large EM (Electro
    Magnetic) impulse
    is caused by nuke detonation in the upper atmosphere.
    Not a singe computer or computerized gadget (cars smartphones, what not) will
    work anymore.

    That is absolutely not a given.

    Many circuits that are not on and in relatively shielded enclosures
    would survive. As would all passive fibre optics and many chips simply
    in storage.


    Oh good, that's OK then.

    :-)

    There are no 'passive' fiber optics links.
    there are send and receive semiconductor based units at each end,
    and the same for any repeaters.

    But none in between


    --
    Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
    guns, why should we let them have ideas?

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 20:53:22
    On 17 May 2022 at 20:00:55 BST, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Japan never cleaned up Nagasaki or Hiroshima, and people, once the post explosion radiation cases had died relatively quickly, did not die of
    cancer, much more than they would have anyway.

    This about sums it up. Each of us endures about 4400 radioactive decays in our body from Potassium-40, each second. Each second, OK? And our bodies, for the most part, cope with that. And that's just one radioisotope, others are available. And this radioactivity in our bodies is not due to fallout from
    bomb tests or reactors, life has been putting up with it since it began a billyun or so years ago. Life has developed repair mechansims and coping strategies to minimise damage. If it hadn't, then we would be in shit-creek.


    From Winky, about K-40:

    K occurs in natural potassium (and thus in some commercial salt substitutes)
    in sufficient quantity that large bags of those substitutes can be used as a radioactive source for classroom demonstrations. K-40 is the radioisotope with the largest abundance in the body. In healthy animals and people, K-40 represents the largest source of radioactivity, greater even than Carbon-14.
    In a human body of 70 kg mass, about 4,400 nuclei of K-40 decay per second.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 08:58:28
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 16/05/2022 23:29, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 16/05/2022 10:15, F. W. wrote:

    I own a Pi 400, a Pi Zero and a Pico.

    Should I put it in the bay and retire? ;-)

    Maybe. Its probably $1000 if you do.

    You'd triple your money just buying kits from official stockists
    here in Aus and selling them there if that were the case.

    No official stockist I found anywhere in the world had stock

    You ignored the links I posted in the thread about Pi Zero
    availability a couple of weeks ago then.

    Pi Zero 2 WH (in expensive kits), 33 in stock: https://raspberry.piaustralia.com.au/collections/raspberry-pi-boards/products/raspberry-pi-zero-2-wh-starter-kit

    Pi 400s on their own, 80 in stock: https://raspberry.piaustralia.com.au/collections/raspberry-pi-boards/products/raspberry-pi-400

    Or at another official Australian stockist: https://core-electronics.com.au/raspberry-pi-zero-2-w-starter-kit.html https://core-electronics.com.au/raspberry-pi-400.html

    If you have access to stock, buy it and resell it

    Pi Zero 2 W boards have sold recently on Ebay AU for $85, that
    wouldn't cover the cost of the over-priced extras in the kits that
    you have to buy with them. Back to the point I made elsewhere, it's
    the low RRP set by the Pi Foundation which makes distributors put
    all their new stock into kits instead of board-only sales when
    supply is constrained. That seems to particularly apply to the Pi
    Zeros though, Pi4 2GB boards are available on their own: https://core-electronics.com.au/raspberry-pi-4-model-b-2gb.html

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 06:41:20
    On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:00:55 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    In fact if you survive the heat flash and the detonation, you are very unlikely to die of fallout.

    There is quite a narrow band between 'death from pother causes and
    survival in which radiation poisoning occurs

    There's a big difference between having one or two nukes go off and having the full scale second strikes let go. That's the bend over scenario.
    I agree if there's a limited nuclear exchange then most of us have nothing
    to worry about.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to timstreater@greenbee.net on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 09:27:15
    On a sunny day (17 May 2022 17:46:21 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jei5bdFf95jU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 17 May 2022 at 18:34:17 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> >wrote:

    I remember that interview with that Russian guy near Chernobyl who had a head from some deer on the wall;
    the head was very radioactive. Reporter asked him: 'Are you not afraid of that radiation coming from that head?'

    Typical ignorant journo. How does he know *what* radiation is coming from it? >Unless it is gamma, you can ignore it. Unless he eats the head, of course, in >which case take care.

    Same with polonium-210. Gives off alpha particles which a sheet of paper will >stop. Quite safe inside a glass bottle, just don't eat it.

    Right, but fun interview:-)
    There is this fear of everything nuclear, probably originates from US propaganda for it having the bomb,
    like their jive 'hide under the table'..

    There is a nice group about radiation:
    https://groups.io/g/GammaSpectrometry-Archives

    Got some nice stuff from there in the past.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 11:15:29
    On 18/05/2022 06:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:00:55 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    In fact if you survive the heat flash and the detonation, you are very
    unlikely to die of fallout.

    There is quite a narrow band between 'death from pother causes and
    survival in which radiation poisoning occurs

    There's a big difference between having one or two nukes go off and having the full scale second strikes let go. That's the bend over scenario.
    I agree if there's a limited nuclear exchange then most of us have nothing
    to worry about.

    The point about a first strike is that its supposed to take out the
    second strike capability.

    Let's say Putin launches 20 missiles. Insane. he's crossed the line and
    invited massive retaliation for virtually no gain..

    So there is no reason to go with first and second strikes. You launch
    the lot. But even in that scenario, Putin knows that there will be
    nuclear equipped submarines lurking, aircraft scrambled and in the air,
    and a large proportion of land sites will be able to get missiles and antimissiles off before they are wiped out.

    But even so it isn't the end of the world. We have had tow 50 megatonne
    plus volcanic eruptions in the twentieth century, that produced far
    more dust fallout than even ground based nuclear strikes would, and a 50 megaton atomic test. The test caused far less issues in terms of ash
    and dust clouds.

    My point being two fold, firstly that Natures ability to cause massive explosions far exceeds humanities, and we are all still here. And
    secondly that atomic explosions kill by vaporization and blast, not by radiation and fallout, primarily.

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex
    the West.


    --
    “It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
    authorities are wrong.”

    ― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 10:53:18
    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 18/05/2022 06:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:00:55 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    In fact if you survive the heat flash and the detonation, you are very
    unlikely to die of fallout.

    There is quite a narrow band between 'death from pother causes and
    survival in which radiation poisoning occurs

    There's a big difference between having one or two nukes go off and >> having the full scale second strikes let go. That's the bend over scenario. >> I agree if there's a limited nuclear exchange then most of us have nothing >> to worry about.

    The point about a first strike is that its supposed to take out the
    second strike capability.

    Let's say Putin launches 20 missiles. Insane. he's crossed the line and >invited massive retaliation for virtually no gain..

    So there is no reason to go with first and second strikes. You launch
    the lot. But even in that scenario, Putin knows that there will be
    nuclear equipped submarines lurking, aircraft scrambled and in the air,
    and a large proportion of land sites will be able to get missiles and >antimissiles off before they are wiped out.

    But even so it isn't the end of the world. We have had tow 50 megatonne
    plus volcanic eruptions in the twentieth century, that produced far
    more dust fallout than even ground based nuclear strikes would, and a 50 >megaton atomic test. The test caused far less issues in terms of ash
    and dust clouds.

    My point being two fold, firstly that Natures ability to cause massive >explosions far exceeds humanities, and we are all still here. And
    secondly that atomic explosions kill by vaporization and blast, not by >radiation and fallout, primarily.

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex
    the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to Russia.
    So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 13:26:15
    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>:

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex
    the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to Russia.
    So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 13:24:40
    On 18 May 2022 at 11:15:29 BST, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex
    the West.

    The Japanese would take back their half of Sakhalin.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 16:03:11
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The point about a first strike is that its supposed to take out the
    second strike capability.

    The point about a second strike is that you can't take it out no
    matter how large a first strike. A lot of effort went into making sure that
    a nuclear war was unwinnable during the cold war, the remnants still exist.

    The all out nuclear war scenario isn't one or two bombs or even ten
    or twenty it is thousands - the whole point is that it is too insane for
    anyone to start it.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 17:34:43
    On 18/05/2022 16:03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The point about a first strike is that its supposed to take out the
    second strike capability.

    The point about a second strike is that you can't take it out no
    matter how large a first strike. A lot of effort went into making sure that
    a nuclear war was unwinnable during the cold war, the remnants still exist.

    The all out nuclear war scenario isn't one or two bombs or even ten
    or twenty it is thousands - the whole point is that it is too insane for anyone to start it.

    Not *that* many thousands, and there is plenty of doubt that Russia
    especially has enough fissile material undecayed in old warheads to go
    bang. Nuclear warheads have a sell by date. Although plutonium SHOULD
    last the pace...

    There is a lot of doubt as to how many warheads Russia ever had as well,
    since te main point of having nukes is to deter anyone else using them
    on you. That just takes a successful test or two and some cardboard
    missiles in the red square parades.

    We are discovering that when it comes to their military capabilities,
    Russia is simply full of shit.

    The only real use of nuclear weapon is as a deterrent, and as neutron
    bombs with high radiation to blast ratios. So you kill people but leave
    the valuable infrastructure intact. The genocide bomb.

    --
    “The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
    the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to timstreater@greenbee.net on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 16:49:42
    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekafnFroa6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> >wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>:

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex
    the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to Russia.
    So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    ?
    ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 18:29:03
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:34:43 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 18/05/2022 16:03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The point about a first strike is that its supposed to take out the
    second strike capability.

    The point about a second strike is that you can't take it out no
    matter how large a first strike. A lot of effort went into making sure
    that a nuclear war was unwinnable during the cold war, the remnants
    still exist.

    The all out nuclear war scenario isn't one or two bombs or even
    ten or twenty it is thousands - the whole point is that it is too
    insane for anyone to start it.

    Not *that* many thousands,

    You hope - and any number of thousands is too many.

    and there is plenty of doubt that Russia
    especially has enough fissile material undecayed in old warheads to go
    bang. Nuclear warheads have a sell by date. Although plutonium SHOULD
    last the pace...

    That's the rub isn't it - is their second strike capability
    intact ? If it isn't then they'd be bluffing on a busted flush but if it is then nuking Moscow in response to (eg) them nuking Kyiv would be a *very*
    bad idea. It would be wise to be *sure* they haven't got a significant
    working nuclear arsenal before escalating to that level - it would be even wiser never to let one of those things off again, but betting on the wisdom
    of the human race is foolish.

    There is a lot of doubt as to how many warheads Russia ever had as well,

    Not that much, the post Soviet Union collapse inspections saw a
    *lot* of warheads and launchers most of which were inoperable when inspected (cryogenically fueled rockets also require a lot of maintenance). What they were like at the peak of the Soviet Union is anyone's guess but they did
    exist.

    We are discovering that when it comes to their military capabilities,
    Russia is simply full of shit.

    That has long been known - the only question has ever been just how much shit and how much real.

    The only real use of nuclear weapon is as a deterrent, and as neutron
    bombs with high radiation to blast ratios. So you kill people but leave
    the valuable infrastructure intact. The genocide bomb.

    AIUI one major problem with neutron bombs is that they kill
    *slowly* which turns your target into a nest of very unhappy suicide troops (for a while) as well as giving them plenty of time to booby trap or destroy all that valuable infrastructure.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 17:33:52
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:34:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    There is a lot of doubt as to how many warheads Russia ever had as well,

    They would seem to have had quite a lot, certainly up to the point when

    since te main point of having nukes is to deter anyone else using them
    on you. That just takes a successful test or two and some cardboard
    missiles in the red square parades.

    We are discovering that when it comes to their military capabilities,
    Russia is simply full of shit.

    I strongly suspect that's because a lot of top brass, along with the
    owners of their armament factories charged top rouble for kit (as do all
    the NATO kit suppliers too) while delivering cheap, untested stuff and pocketing the difference.

    Take a look at Roscosmos:
    - not doing much more than contracted minimums
    - using worn-out kit made by sloppy workers (think of the 2mm drill-hole
    in Soyuz MS-09)
    - the earlier mission to ISS that aborted when barely out of the
    atmosphere
    - the fate of Buran (one uncrewed launch in 1998 and then destroyed
    when its hangar collapsed in 2002
    - the huge salary that Dmitry Rogozin awarded himself recently

    When you consider the lamentable state of the feared Russian tanks and the unprofessional behaviour of their army in Ukraine, why should you expect Russian nukes and detection systems to be in any better operational state?

    It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the best-maintained MIG fighters and their best-trained crews belong to India and the eastern NATO countries.

    Don't forget that the Russian Army and Navy are 66% conscripted? Add in
    the short conscription period (12 months) from induction to discharge,
    bad treatment by the regulars and poor pay, is it any surprise their
    morale is low and they neither know nor care about the rules of war, i.e.
    not killing civilians, looting, etc, etc.


    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 18:37:02
    On 18/05/2022 17:49, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekafnFroa6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The Natural >>> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>:

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex >>>> the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to Russia.
    So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    ?
    ;-)


    It is Covid and the risks of globalisation that expose the stupidity of
    Brexit, not Ukraine. We need to have supply/production located in a
    stable area, under our control. That only really works for a very large economic (and necessarily political) area.

    The UK was stupid, but also the EU should have been more accommodating
    of UK concerns, to keep them on board. The UK/EU should have been more accommodating of Russian concerns to try and get them onboard
    (eventually).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 17:51:21
    On 18 May 2022 at 17:49:42 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekafnFroa6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The Natural >>> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>:

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex >>>> the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to Russia.
    So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now

    Why?

    I was generally pro the EU concept until I saw it closer up and could also see what a bureaucratic mess it is. And that happened around 20 years ago. Nothing has happened since to make me change my mind. The way that van der leyen
    became president of the Commission with no competition, no input from the populace, was a good example. Done more or less the way that the Chinese do
    it.

    Then you have their generally uncooperative manner towards our leaving and behaviour since we left, too. Sulking like children deprived of their toys.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 17:53:00
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:49:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekafnFroa6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The
    Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>:

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would
    annex the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to
    Russia. So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    Some do, mainly the professional classes, but many of those who voted for brexit are still saying 'Bring it on: we want to re-negotiate a PROPER
    brexit', the Scots are saying 'forget the United Kingdom: we want out'
    while the DUP (Northern Ireland) are just saying NO to everything because
    of the Northern Ireland Agreement which they hate.

    Its quite likely that Boris will be slung out sooner rather then later,
    but that will be because of his 'laws apply to little people, not to me' attitude and his inability to see what's wrong with the Northern Ireland agreement that he pushed through.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 18:39:23
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:49:42 GMT
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    I'd rate it better than that, most of the initiatives on curbing
    the excesses of rampant capitalism seem to be coming from the EU for a
    start.

    What the EU isn't is a state or nation. Perhaps yet should be added
    to the previous sentence.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..

    It will be a lot closer to being a state/nation/...

    The interesting thing about the EU having an army (generalise to military) comes if that replaces the nations in the EU having armies
    because that really does make war between the nations of the EU impossible which was the original overarching goal. It would be a big ask, but then so
    was the Euro.

    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    Couldn't say, I decamped to Ireland a long time ago and I'm not
    going back.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 18:11:10
    On 18 May 2022 at 18:53:00 BST, Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:49:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS
    <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekafnFroa6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The
    Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>:

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if >>>>> its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would
    annex the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to
    Russia. So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    Some do, mainly the professional classes ...

    And the reason for that is that there is now one less trough for them to put their snouts into. A well-funded trough, too, with next to no democratic oversight.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Vincent Coen@2:250/1 to Jan Panteltje on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 19:10:54
    Hello Jan!

    Wednesday May 18 2022 16:49, you wrote to timstreater@greenbee.net:

    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in
    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    What with 27 commanders all speaking (mostly) a different language all with attitude.

    Like a hole in the head !


    Vincent

    --- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.8/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 20:18:23
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 18:37:02 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    The UK was stupid, but also the EU should have been more accommodating
    of UK concerns, to keep them on board.

    Hmm as I recall it the UK had a large collection of special arrangements attached to their EU membership.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to TimS on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 21:00:29
    On 18 May 2022 17:51:21 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    Why?

    I was generally pro the EU concept until I saw it closer up and could
    also see what a bureaucratic mess it is. And that happened around 20

    Have you seen the British civil service up close ? Most of what
    people see as the EU and when they talk about "being ruled from Brussels by faceless Eurocrats" is the civil service - those things are bureaucratic
    messes by definition and have been since Hammurabi.

    years ago. Nothing has happened since to make me change my mind. The way
    that van der leyen became president of the Commission with no
    competition, no input from the populace, was a good example. Done more or less the way that the Chinese do it.

    Why ? She's a civil servant not an elected representative. The
    elected representatives could kick her out if they wished to, along with
    the whole commission. So who elected the head of HMRC ? Who can kick them
    out ?

    Then you have their generally uncooperative manner towards our leaving and behaviour since we left, too. Sulking like children deprived of their
    toys.

    For the most part the EU has just got on with its own business
    since the UK left. Of course most of us have pretty much stopped buying
    stuff from the UK because of the duties and taxes but that's to be expected since making internal trade smooth is part of what the EU is about and it
    works well.

    As for the uncooperative attitude towards the UK leaving. The negotiations were an endless stream of the UK wanting to have the cake and
    eat it and the EU pointing out why they couldn't - as in the four freedoms
    are inseparable.

    Then there is the whole ongoing fiasco that emerges from Boris
    Johnson promising the DUP (who had him by the short and^W^Wvotes) that
    there would be no customs checks in the Irish sea *and* promising the EU and Ireland that there would be no hard border on the island of Ireland
    ignoring the simple fact that there have to be customs checks *somewhere*
    as soon as the UK is not in the single market. So of course as soon as the
    DUP lost their grip on him they went in the only place they could be implemented (there are many buildings and farms straddling the land border)
    and the DUP threw the toys out of the pram leaving Northern Ireland without
    a government.

    The EU aren't the ones trying to change the deal after its been
    signed and they find they don't like the taste. That's the UK and now when
    they were told that the EU wasn't about to renegotiate a deal that had
    taken so long to close and been signed by all concerned the UK response is
    to say "We'll do what we want without negotiating then" which is likely to
    be a treaty breach and a matter of international law.

    As for sulking about lost toys - there's been almost no impact from
    the UK leaving any that there was is drowned in the noise of the pandemic impact. If it weren't for the DUP messing up the government of Northern
    Ireland nobody in the EU would be paying any attention to the UK apart
    from enjoying the antics of the Royal Family.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 22:18:06
    On 18/05/2022 20:18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 18:37:02 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    The UK was stupid, but also the EU should have been more accommodating
    of UK concerns, to keep them on board.

    Hmm as I recall it the UK had a large collection of special arrangements attached to their EU membership.


    A large collection? Do you mean the rebate? Perhaps, but to a certain
    extent that was a sticking plaster for EU policy flaws. Many of the
    referendum Brexit voter's concerns, were common EU concerns. Border
    immigration control, for instance.

    If the EU had sought sensible reform, it is possible that it could have
    kept Britain and strengthened itself. After the referendum, I had hoped
    Macron might step up with a vision that would suit everyone. But he was
    just another all mouth and no trousers reformer, like Blair.

    The EU clearly needs stronger political integration. The Greek crisis
    was a clear indication of that. The EU needs to be able to enforce
    sensible member state national budgetary policy, and should give proper
    aid to floundering regions.

    And now, today, we have Hungry looking for a bribe, to help push through
    the EU's (stupid) plans to divest from Russian oil. Similarly, (NATO not
    EU), Turkey is doing the same with a threat to block Sweden and Finland
    from joining NATO.

    The EU needs to become a proper political entity in its own right.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 21:19:39
    On 18 May 2022 at 21:00:29 BST, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On 18 May 2022 17:51:21 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    Why?

    I was generally pro the EU concept until I saw it closer up and could
    also see what a bureaucratic mess it is. And that happened around 20

    Have you seen the British civil service up close ? Most of what
    people see as the EU and when they talk about "being ruled from Brussels by faceless Eurocrats" is the civil service - those things are bureaucratic messes by definition and have been since Hammurabi.

    years ago. Nothing has happened since to make me change my mind. The way
    that van der leyen became president of the Commission with no
    competition, no input from the populace, was a good example. Done more or
    less the way that the Chinese do it.

    Why ? She's a civil servant not an elected representative. The
    elected representatives could kick her out if they wished to, along with
    the whole commission. So who elected the head of HMRC ? Who can kick them
    out ?

    The head of HMRC doesn't initiate legislation, that's the difference. All EU legislation starts at the Commission. It's not the business of civil servants to initiate legislation, directly elected politicians should be doing that.

    It continues to be my opinion that the EU, as the latest attempt to "unify" Europe over the heads of the populace, will end in tears, just as previous attempts have.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to TimS on Thursday, May 19, 2022 07:29:41
    On 18 May 2022 21:19:39 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    The head of HMRC doesn't initiate legislation, that's the difference. All
    EU legislation starts at the Commission. It's not the business of civil servants to initiate legislation, directly elected politicians should be doing that.

    That's a matter of opinion, is it better to have the legislation drafted by professionals who consider practical matters first or
    politicians who consider ideology first ? Either way it's the directly
    elected representatives who decide on it.

    It continues to be my opinion that the EU, as the latest attempt to
    "unify" Europe over the heads of the populace, will end in tears, just as previous attempts have.

    The previous attempts were at the point of the sword (recently gun) this one is at the point of the pen and you know what is said about pens
    and swords.

    Oh and quite a lot of the populace are generally happy about the
    idea of unifying Europe, some even think of themselves as European first
    and their nationality second. There are also people who want the bad old
    days of "my country first" back - that's retrograde and most know it but it
    can be a seductive call.

    The EU approach looks like the best (only) path open towards the dissolution of nations which is something we really need to achieve., the
    world is too small and the toys are too dangerous for nations who all too
    often act like spoiled three year old children.

    Ditching it over trivia is throwing the babies out with the
    bathwater. Making it better starts with thinking of the EU as "us" not
    "them".

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Vincent Coen on Thursday, May 19, 2022 07:18:19
    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 19:10:54 +1200) it happened nospam.Vincent.Coen@f1.n250.z2.fidonet.org (Vincent Coen) wrote in <1652897529@f1.n250.z2.fidonet.org>:

    Hello Jan!

    Wednesday May 18 2022 16:49, you wrote to timstreater@greenbee.net:

    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in
    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    What with 27 commanders all speaking (mostly) a different language all with >attitude.

    Like a hole in the head !

    Yes, languages, here in the Netherlands we learn Dutch, French and German all required in high school
    Later I did some Spanish.
    As I have satellite TV with a movable dish I can get so many countries, one of those is Russia TV1 on Hotbird 13 degrees East
    I like to listen to different viewpoints and now with the war in Ukrain I sometimes watch that Russian channel.
    My Russian is bad (understatement), but then a while back I picked up some words from that channel
    and last week I was stunned listening to some guy and then realized I understood what he was talking about.
    Language is a funny thing, maybe easier to learn than you think.
    Here in kindergarten, I already got some French,

    .. A common language for the whole EU? I dunno, grin: Think English is out now they left, OTOH then all have to learn it
    so equal effort for everybody, why not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to timstreater@greenbee.net on Thursday, May 19, 2022 07:18:19
    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 17:51:21 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekq0pF5eeU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 17:49:42 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> >wrote:

    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS
    <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekafnFroa6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> >>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The Natural >>>> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>: >>>
    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if >>>>> its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex >>>>> the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to Russia. >>>> So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now

    Why?

    I was generally pro the EU concept until I saw it closer up and could also see >what a bureaucratic mess it is. And that happened around 20 years ago. Nothing >has happened since to make me change my mind. The way that van der leyen >became president of the Commission with no competition, no input from the >populace, was a good example. Done more or less the way that the Chinese do >it.

    Then you have their generally uncooperative manner towards our leaving and >behaviour since we left, too. Sulking like children deprived of their toys.

    Yes that is true, we did say once EU parliament is a place were we send malfunctioning politicians
    to get rid of those.
    Then all the green nonsense, the huge import of cheap labor from for example Africa, so many problems.
    But it is a huge market place, even US fears the Euro.
    Was nice to be able to travel in the EU (including once UK) everywhere.
    Now UK has problems with Ireland's border I did read, how that will unfold?
    And a majority in Ireland wants to be free of the UK?
    Have not followed all the details really.
    Shelves empty in the shops?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com on Thursday, May 19, 2022 07:18:19
    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 18:37:02 +0100) it happened Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote in <t63aru$psh$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 18/05/2022 17:49, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS
    <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekafnFroa6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> >>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The Natural >>>> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>: >>>
    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if >>>>> its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex >>>>> the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to Russia. >>>> So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    ?
    ;-)


    It is Covid and the risks of globalisation that expose the stupidity of >Brexit, not Ukraine. We need to have supply/production located in a
    stable area, under our control. That only really works for a very large >economic (and necessarily political) area.

    The UK was stupid, but also the EU should have been more accommodating
    of UK concerns, to keep them on board. The UK/EU should have been more >accommodating of Russian concerns to try and get them onboard
    (eventually).

    Yes, its easier to win somebody over if you offer them something nice,
    threats and guns do not work so well.
    That is how the old USSR fell, Reagan played it beautifully without a shot fired.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Andy Burns@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thursday, May 19, 2022 08:42:28
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    as I recall it the UK had a large collection of special
    arrangements attached to their EU membership.

    Not *that* many ...

    Euro opt-out ... plenty others obliged to join but <cough>waiting</c> for years Schengen opt-out ... several including Ireland
    EMU opt out ... maybe only Denmark?
    The rebate ... chalk one up for Maggie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thursday, May 19, 2022 08:56:32
    On 18/05/2022 17:49, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in <jekafnFroa6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 18 May 2022 at 11:53:18 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 11:15:29 +0100) it happened The Natural >>> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t62h02$tog$1@dont-email.me>:

    Finally what are the defence implications for a nation like Russia if
    its used all its nukes up, and is in total ruins? who will move in
    instead? Greater China would take the East and the Germans would annex >>>> the West.

    I was thinking west part of N America to China and east part to Russia.
    So Washington would be Russian and LA Chinese.

    With everybody and their cat having nukes these days,
    changes are huge many will align and unite against US imperialism.

    Is that not what history shows?
    No empire yet has persisted.

    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    We got out just in time.


    ?
    ;-)


    --
    Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:01:03
    On 18/05/2022 22:18, Pancho wrote:
    On 18/05/2022 20:18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 18:37:02 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    The UK was stupid, but also the EU should have been more accommodating
    of UK concerns, to keep them on board.

        Hmm as I recall it the UK had a large collection of special
    arrangements attached to their EU membership.


    A large collection? Do you mean the rebate? Perhaps, but to a certain
    extent that was a sticking plaster for EU policy flaws. Many of the referendum Brexit voter's concerns, were common EU concerns. Border immigration control, for instance.

    If the EU had sought sensible reform, it is possible that it could have
    kept Britain and strengthened itself. After the referendum, I had hoped Macron might step up with a vision that would suit everyone. But he was
    just another all mouth and no trousers reformer, like Blair.

    The EU clearly needs stronger political integration. The Greek crisis
    was a clear indication of that. The EU needs to be able to enforce
    sensible member state national budgetary policy, and should give proper
    aid to floundering regions.

    And now, today, we have Hungry looking for a bribe, to help push through
    the EU's (stupid) plans to divest from Russian oil. Similarly, (NATO not
    EU), Turkey is doing the same with a threat to block Sweden and Finland
    from joining NATO.

    The EU needs to become a proper political entity in its own right.

    And there is a cat that needs belling.

    No one in Britain objected to *an* EU.

    We objected to *this* one, and the pandemic and Ukraine has shown why.
    Too slow to adapt to rapidly changing circumstances, offers no military protectioni all, and is comprised of incompetent corrupt people no one
    has ever heard of who cannot be fired.

    It is essentially a copy of the USSR, minus the tanks (so far)

    Not surprsising since it was designed by a communist.



    --
    Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:03:57
    On 19/05/2022 07:29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Oh and quite a lot of the populace are generally happy about the
    idea of unifying Europe, some even think of themselves as European first
    and their nationality second.

    Well when your country is smaller than a British county, it is not
    surprising

    The idea of unifying Europe is great. It's the reality of the EU that is
    such a mess.


    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:15:07
    On 18/05/2022 18:29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    AIUI one major problem with neutron bombs is that they kill
    *slowly* which turns your target into a nest of very unhappy suicide troops (for a while) as well as giving them plenty of time to booby trap or destroy all that valuable infrastructure.

    No, they don't kill slowly - if you look at the time to live of people
    exposed to severe radiation, it's a very exponential decay with a cutoff
    in weeks. And most of them are pretty sick already.

    --
    WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:08:37
    On 19/05/2022 08:18, Jan Panteltje wrote:


    Yes that is true, we did say once EU parliament is a place were we send malfunctioning politicians
    to get rid of those.
    Then all the green nonsense, the huge import of cheap labor from for example Africa, so many problems.
    But it is a huge market place, even US fears the Euro.
    Was nice to be able to travel in the EU (including once UK) everywhere.
    Now UK has problems with Ireland's border I did read, how that will unfold?

    Er no, it is the EU that has problems with Ireland's border.


    And a majority in Ireland wants to be free of the UK?

    No, they do not.


    Have not followed all the details really.

    That says it all

    Shelves empty in the shops?

    Only of EU produce. No one buys it any more if they can avoid it.

    With the whole of Africa desperate to sell vegetables and fruit to the
    UK, who needs Spain Italy and Greece, not to mention S American produce?
    - all in the shops now. EU produce simply has too much red tape - its
    over priced and its EU.

    Its easier to buy tech from China than from the EU. China wants to
    trade. Its not a closed shop.


    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:11:18
    On 18/05/2022 18:53, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    Some do, mainly the professional classes, but many of those who voted for brexit are still saying 'Bring it on: we want to re-negotiate a PROPER brexit', the Scots are saying 'forget the United Kingdom: we want out'
    while the DUP (Northern Ireland) are just saying NO to everything because
    of the Northern Ireland Agreement which they hate.

    Its quite likely that Boris will be slung out sooner rather then later,
    but that will be because of his 'laws apply to little people, not to me' attitude and his inability to see what's wrong with the Northern Ireland agreement that he pushed through.

    The problem he has is that the unelected house of lords naturally
    supports the unelected Brussels EU, so getting any legislation through
    would be hard, and he doesn't really care anyway.

    But I think the time is coming.
    By the way opinion polls show that well over half of Scotland and
    Northern ireland want to stay in the UK.



    --
    "Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
    higher education positively fortifies it."

    - Stephen Vizinczey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:12:17
    On 18/05/2022 18:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:49:42 GMT
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    I'd rate it better than that, most of the initiatives on curbing
    the excesses of rampant capitalism seem to be coming from the EU for a
    start.

    What the EU isn't is a state or nation. Perhaps yet should be added
    to the previous sentence.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..

    It will be a lot closer to being a state/nation/...

    The interesting thing about the EU having an army (generalise to military) comes if that replaces the nations in the EU having armies
    because that really does make war between the nations of the EU impossible which was the original overarching goal. It would be a big ask, but then so was the Euro.

    And that has been a fucking disaster as well.

    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    Couldn't say, I decamped to Ireland a long time ago and I'm not
    going back.



    --
    WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From RJH@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Thursday, May 19, 2022 08:32:35
    On 19 May 2022 at 09:08:37 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/05/2022 08:18, Jan Panteltje wrote:


    Yes that is true, we did say once EU parliament is a place were we send
    malfunctioning politicians
    to get rid of those.
    Then all the green nonsense, the huge import of cheap labor from for example >> Africa, so many problems.
    But it is a huge market place, even US fears the Euro.
    Was nice to be able to travel in the EU (including once UK) everywhere.
    Now UK has problems with Ireland's border I did read, how that will unfold?

    Er no, it is the EU that has problems with Ireland's border.

    The EU has problems with the UK not sticking to its agreement about the Ireland's border. Or more accurately, borders - between the north and south, the the UK and the the north.

    And a majority in Ireland wants to be free of the UK?

    No, they do not.


    Consensus now that Sinn Fein's had a decent election showing is that the writing's on the wall for the north - reunification will happen. Sooner rather than later.

    But agreed, it's unlikely that the north would vote for reunification if there was an election tomorrow.


    Have not followed all the details really.

    You're not alone :-)


    That says it all

    Shelves empty in the shops?

    Only of EU produce. No one buys it any more if they can avoid it.

    With the whole of Africa desperate to sell vegetables and fruit to the
    UK, who needs Spain Italy and Greece, not to mention S American produce?
    - all in the shops now. EU produce simply has too much red tape - its
    over priced and its EU.

    Its easier to buy tech from China than from the EU. China wants to
    trade. Its not a closed shop.

    Insofar as any of that is true, any issues with the EU being a 'closed shop' are a direct result of the negotiated Brexit agreement. We knew what we were signing up to. We signed. We have now decided we don't like it.

    And the notion that China is a free and unfettered market is laughable.

    --
    Cheers, Rob

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  • From Folderol@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:21:55
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 09:03:57 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/05/2022 07:29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Oh and quite a lot of the populace are generally happy about the
    idea of unifying Europe, some even think of themselves as European first
    and their nationality second.

    Well when your country is smaller than a British county, it is not
    surprising

    The idea of unifying Europe is great. It's the reality of the EU that is
    such a mess.



    I was able to get hold of a Pi4 with only 2G memory recently. I'm happy to say that it *comfortably* runs a rather complex soft-synth, along with a fully featured sequencer :)

    --
    Basic

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Andy Burns on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:36:14
    On 19 May 2022 at 08:42:28 BST, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    as I recall it the UK had a large collection of special
    arrangements attached to their EU membership.

    Not *that* many ...

    Euro opt-out ... plenty others obliged to join but <cough>waiting</c> for years
    Schengen opt-out ... several including Ireland
    EMU opt out ... maybe only Denmark?
    The rebate ... chalk one up for Maggie

    And Greenland, Iceland, and Switzerland took the "we're not going to join" opt-out. They formally withdrew their applications to join. Small countries, yes, but one has to wonder why.

    --
    Tim

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  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thursday, May 19, 2022 10:36:11
    On 19/05/2022 08:18, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 May 2022 19:10:54 +1200) it happened nospam.Vincent.Coen@f1.n250.z2.fidonet.org (Vincent Coen) wrote in <1652897529@f1.n250.z2.fidonet.org>:

    Hello Jan!

    Wednesday May 18 2022 16:49, you wrote to timstreater@greenbee.net:

    On a sunny day (18 May 2022 13:26:15 GMT) it happened TimS
    <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote in
    As the EU will discover.

    EU is hardly an emipre, more a US slave area.

    Once EU has its own army and dances to its own tune ..
    Anyways you Brits must regret leaving it by now.

    What with 27 commanders all speaking (mostly) a different language all with >> attitude.

    Like a hole in the head !

    Yes, languages, here in the Netherlands we learn Dutch, French and German all required in high school
    Later I did some Spanish.
    As I have satellite TV with a movable dish I can get so many countries, one of those is Russia TV1 on Hotbird 13 degrees East
    I like to listen to different viewpoints and now with the war in Ukrain I sometimes watch that Russian channel.
    My Russian is bad (understatement), but then a while back I picked up some words from that channel
    and last week I was stunned listening to some guy and then realized I understood what he was talking about.
    Language is a funny thing, maybe easier to learn than you think.
    Here in kindergarten, I already got some French,

    .. A common language for the whole EU? I dunno, grin: Think English is out now they left, OTOH then all have to learn it
    so equal effort for everybody, why not.



    The Irish speak English, too - they're still in.

    --
    Chris Elvidge
    England

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  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thursday, May 19, 2022 10:47:54
    On 19/05/2022 09:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    And a majority in Ireland wants to be free of the UK?

    No, they do not.

    Eire population ~5M - already free of the UK
    N Ireland population ~2M - about half want independence.

    So a majority for freedom from the UK

    --
    Chris Elvidge
    England

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:28:17
    On 19 May 2022 at 07:29:41 BST, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    The EU approach looks like the best (only) path open towards the dissolution of nations which is something we really need to achieve., the world is too small and the toys are too dangerous for nations who all too often act like spoiled three year old children.

    Attempts to "dissolve" nations- sort of like the Russians are trying as we speak - is precisely what cause the pen to fail and the sword to come back.

    --
    Tim

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Thursday, May 19, 2022 09:33:57
    On 19 May 2022 at 08:18:19 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Was nice to be able to travel in the EU (including once UK) everywhere.

    Ah, you mean like it was before the EU? When in 1967/68 I took my car across the channel, showed my passport and green card, and immediately was able to cross France and then do the same to enter Switzerland, Italy, Greece,
    Germany, Austria, Spain, even communist Yugoslavia. So I don't understand your comment.

    Now UK has problems with Ireland's border I did read, how that will unfold?

    It's the EU that has the problem, not us.

    --
    Tim

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:24:27
    On 19/05/2022 10:47, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 19/05/2022 09:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    And a majority in Ireland wants to be free of the UK?

    No, they do not.

    Eire population ~5M - already free of the UK
    N Ireland population ~2M - about half want independence.

    So a majority for freedom from the UK

    That wasn't what he meant. In NI and Scotland the majority want to
    remain in the UK, NI is not ROI, and there is no country called 'Ireland'

    Its staggering how ill informed most people who subscribe to the EU, are.

    But like Russia, disinformation is what the EU does best...

    --
    Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
    twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
    on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
    projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

    Richard Lindzen

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:26:04
    On 19/05/2022 10:28, TimS wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 at 07:29:41 BST, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    The EU approach looks like the best (only) path open towards the
    dissolution of nations which is something we really need to achieve., the
    world is too small and the toys are too dangerous for nations who all too
    often act like spoiled three year old children.

    Attempts to "dissolve" nations- sort of like the Russians are trying as we speak - is precisely what cause the pen to fail and the sword to come back.

    The old myth that the EU, rather than nuclear weapons, is what stopped
    the next European war.

    Oh look how successful its being. Germany and Hungary have to have
    Russian gas and cant afford to upset Putin.
    Faugh!
    Its all a sham.


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:26:22
    On 19/05/2022 10:33, TimS wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 at 08:18:19 BST, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Was nice to be able to travel in the EU (including once UK) everywhere.

    Ah, you mean like it was before the EU? When in 1967/68 I took my car across the channel, showed my passport and green card, and immediately was able to cross France and then do the same to enter Switzerland, Italy, Greece, Germany, Austria, Spain, even communist Yugoslavia. So I don't understand your
    comment.

    Now UK has problems with Ireland's border I did read, how that will unfold?

    It's the EU that has the problem, not us.

    Precisely.


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:27:11
    On 19/05/2022 10:36, TimS wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 at 08:42:28 BST, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    as I recall it the UK had a large collection of special
    arrangements attached to their EU membership.

    Not *that* many ...

    Euro opt-out ... plenty others obliged to join but <cough>waiting</c> for years
    Schengen opt-out ... several including Ireland
    EMU opt out ... maybe only Denmark?
    The rebate ... chalk one up for Maggie

    And Greenland, Iceland, and Switzerland took the "we're not going to join" opt-out. They formally withdrew their applications to join. Small countries, yes, but one has to wonder why.


    Sweden stayed out of the Euro and saved its economy.


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to RJH on Thursday, May 19, 2022 11:47:18
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 08:32:35 -0000 (UTC), RJH wrote:

    The EU has problems with the UK not sticking to its agreement about the Ireland's border. Or more accurately, borders - between the north and
    south, the the UK and the the north.

    Scarcely surprising. Given that there needed to be a customs/travel/
    politic barrier once the UK wasn't part of the EU, the problem being where
    to put it. There are only three choices:

    1) on the existing Irish/Northern Ireland border - tried in the past and
    no longer tolerated not least because any implementation would be at
    least a big a mess as the current Dutch/Belgian fractal border
    2) somewhere in the middle of NI, say between Belfast and Derry or just
    outside the Belfast docks - both obvious non-starters
    3) in the Irish Sea - never accepted at any stage by the DUP

    All have fatal flaws, which anybody with half a brain would have
    recognised, except Boris and cronies - the people who proposed it and are
    now acting all surprised that its being picked apart. Cretins. Admittedly
    the EU apparat didn't help things by shovelling on all the regulations and documentation they could think of, but the *wonderful* HMCE and the
    equally impressive Home Office haven't helped, but that seems to be
    primarily due to incompetence and an inability to do anything by a known deadline.

    And the notion that China is a free and unfettered market is laughable.

    Another given. Apparently their party system used to work, but now that
    its apparently following Russia's lead toward a self-appointing oligarchy
    it may be starting to totter.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Mike Scott@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Thursday, May 19, 2022 14:17:33
    On 19/05/2022 12:47, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 08:32:35 -0000 (UTC), RJH wrote:

    The EU has problems with the UK not sticking to its agreement about the
    Ireland's border. Or more accurately, borders - between the north and
    south, the the UK and the the north.

    Scarcely surprising. Given that there needed to be a customs/travel/
    politic barrier once the UK wasn't part of the EU, the problem being where
    to put it. There are only three choices:

    Make that four.


    1) on the existing Irish/Northern Ireland border - tried in the past and
    no longer tolerated not least because any implementation would be at
    least a big a mess as the current Dutch/Belgian fractal border
    2) somewhere in the middle of NI, say between Belfast and Derry or just
    outside the Belfast docks - both obvious non-starters
    3) in the Irish Sea - never accepted at any stage by the DUP

    or 4) between RoI and mainland Europe.


    Not that Brussels would ever have accepted that, but it seems less
    intrusive than a border within a single nation.


    (Isn't this all way OT now for this group)


    --
    Mike Scott
    Harlow, England

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thursday, May 19, 2022 23:44:48
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 18/05/2022 18:29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    AIUI one major problem with neutron bombs is that they kill
    *slowly* which turns your target into a nest of very unhappy suicide troops >> (for a while) as well as giving them plenty of time to booby trap or destroy >> all that valuable infrastructure.

    No, they don't kill slowly - if you look at the time to live of people exposed to severe radiation, it's a very exponential decay with a cutoff
    in weeks. And most of them are pretty sick already.

    This is an interesting film from the 1960s describing how the US
    Air Force planned for air bases to "Survive to Fight" in a
    radioactive environment.
    https://archive.org/details/gov.dod.dimoc.27896

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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  • From Jan Panteltje@3:770/3 to Philosopher on Thursday, May 19, 2022 13:48:34
    On a sunny day (Thu, 19 May 2022 12:26:04 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t659gc$avq$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 19/05/2022 10:28, TimS wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 at 07:29:41 BST, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    The EU approach looks like the best (only) path open towards the
    dissolution of nations which is something we really need to achieve., the >>> world is too small and the toys are too dangerous for nations who all too >>> often act like spoiled three year old children.

    Attempts to "dissolve" nations- sort of like the Russians are trying as we >> speak - is precisely what cause the pen to fail and the sword to come back. >>
    The old myth that the EU, rather than nuclear weapons, is what stopped
    the next European war.

    Oh look how successful its being. Germany and Hungary have to have
    Russian gas and cant afford to upset Putin.
    Faugh!
    Its all a sham.

    Well Germany - ruled at that time by US agent Merkel - killed their nuclear plants as US is afraid they make a bomb.
    Merkel used the fear for nuclear in the population after F*uckupshima and screaming greens did the rest.

    Its all US games, killing Northstream2 was already part of Trumps game, ByeThen just used warmongering to do the rest,
    war games...
    US rather kills its own people with fracking...

    I'd expect if US does not get nuked into oblivion then the states will fall apart anyways and
    what will be left is a bunch of black warlords eating each other and perhaps buffalo...
    :-)

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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thursday, May 19, 2022 15:16:09
    On 19/05/2022 14:48, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    US rather kills its own people with fracking...

    I'd expect if US does not get nuked into oblivion then the states will fall apart anyways and
    what will be left is a bunch of black warlords eating each other and perhaps buffalo...
    :-)


    Quite right, too much fracking. I blame Battlestar Galactica.

    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrYdQnz8vJg>

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  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thursday, May 19, 2022 15:20:16
    On 19/05/2022 12:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 19/05/2022 10:47, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 19/05/2022 09:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    And a majority in Ireland wants to be free of the UK?

    No, they do not.

    Eire population ~5M - already free of the UK
    N Ireland population ~2M - about half want independence.

    So a majority for freedom from the UK

    That wasn't what he meant. In NI and Scotland the majority want to
    remain in the UK, NI is not ROI, and there is no country called 'Ireland'

    Its staggering how ill informed most people who subscribe to the EU, are.

    But like Russia, disinformation is what the EU does best...


    But there is an island called Ireland.
    "Country" was not specified originally.

    --
    Chris Elvidge
    England

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to All on Thursday, May 19, 2022 16:41:08
    Den 2022-05-19 kl. 09:18, skrev Jan Panteltje:

    .. A common language for the whole EU? I dunno, grin: Think English is out now they left, OTOH then all have to learn it
    so equal effort for everybody, why not.


    Why would English be out?
    Ireland and Malta still have is as offical language.
    And I guess that English is still the language known
    by most EU-residents - may it be 2nd , 3rd or 4th language.

    Besides - medical doctors still use Latin as part of their work.
    No country has Latin as offical language but for the Vatican

    --
    Björn

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Thursday, May 19, 2022 14:48:11
    On 19 May 2022 at 15:20:16 BST, Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

    On 19/05/2022 12:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 19/05/2022 10:47, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 19/05/2022 09:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    And a majority in Ireland wants to be free of the UK?

    No, they do not.

    Eire population ~5M - already free of the UK
    N Ireland population ~2M - about half want independence.

    So a majority for freedom from the UK

    That wasn't what he meant. In NI and Scotland the majority want to
    remain in the UK, NI is not ROI, and there is no country called 'Ireland'

    Its staggering how ill informed most people who subscribe to the EU, are.

    But like Russia, disinformation is what the EU does best...

    But there is an island called Ireland.
    "Country" was not specified originally.

    That's a geographical entity. Like Europe.

    --
    Tim

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thursday, May 19, 2022 16:08:56
    On 19/05/2022 14:48, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 19 May 2022 12:26:04 +0100) it happened The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t659gc$avq$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 19/05/2022 10:28, TimS wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 at 07:29:41 BST, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    The EU approach looks like the best (only) path open towards the >>>> dissolution of nations which is something we really need to achieve., the >>>> world is too small and the toys are too dangerous for nations who all too >>>> often act like spoiled three year old children.

    Attempts to "dissolve" nations- sort of like the Russians are trying as we >>> speak - is precisely what cause the pen to fail and the sword to come back. >>>
    The old myth that the EU, rather than nuclear weapons, is what stopped
    the next European war.

    Oh look how successful its being. Germany and Hungary have to have
    Russian gas and cant afford to upset Putin.
    Faugh!
    Its all a sham.

    Well Germany - ruled at that time by US agent Merkel
    RUSSIAN agent, Merkel

    - killed their nuclear plants as US is afraid they make a bomb.
    Merkel used the fear for nuclear in the population after F*uckupshima and screaming greens did the rest.

    Its all US games, killing Northstream2 was already part of Trumps game, ByeThen just used warmongering to do the rest,
    war games...
    US rather kills its own people with fracking...

    I'd expect if US does not get nuked into oblivion then the states will fall apart anyways and
    what will be left is a bunch of black warlords eating each other and perhaps buffalo...
    :-)




    --
    Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
    people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
    they are poor.

    Peter Thompson

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  • From Folderol@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thursday, May 19, 2022 16:25:36
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 16:08:56 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/05/2022 14:48, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 19 May 2022 12:26:04 +0100) it happened The Natural
    Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <t659gc$avq$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 19/05/2022 10:28, TimS wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 at 07:29:41 BST, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    The EU approach looks like the best (only) path open towards the >>>>> dissolution of nations which is something we really need to achieve., the >>>>> world is too small and the toys are too dangerous for nations who all too >>>>> often act like spoiled three year old children.

    Attempts to "dissolve" nations- sort of like the Russians are trying as we >>>> speak - is precisely what cause the pen to fail and the sword to come back.

    The old myth that the EU, rather than nuclear weapons, is what stopped
    the next European war.

    Oh look how successful its being. Germany and Hungary have to have
    Russian gas and cant afford to upset Putin.
    Faugh!
    Its all a sham.

    Well Germany - ruled at that time by US agent Merkel
    RUSSIAN agent, Merkel

    - killed their nuclear plants as US is afraid they make a bomb.
    Merkel used the fear for nuclear in the population after F*uckupshima and screaming greens did the rest.

    Its all US games, killing Northstream2 was already part of Trumps game, ByeThen just used warmongering to do the rest,
    war games...
    US rather kills its own people with fracking...

    I'd expect if US does not get nuked into oblivion then the states will fall apart anyways and
    what will be left is a bunch of black warlords eating each other and perhaps buffalo...
    :-)

    Please take this totally off topic politics to uk.poitics

    Or would you like me to just cross-post it there?

    --
    Basic

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thursday, May 19, 2022 11:59:55
    Re: Re: No pi stock anywhere and delivery times out to end 2023!
    By: Ahem A Rivet's Shot to TimS on Thu May 19 2022 07:29 am

    The head of HMRC doesn't initiate legislation, that's the difference. All EU legislation starts at the Commission. It's not the business of civil servants to initiate legislation, directly elected politicians should be doing that.

    That's a matter of opinion, is it better to have the legislation drafted by professionals who consider practical matters first or
    politicians who consider ideology first ? Either way it's the directly elected representatives who decide on it.


    In the end of the day, ideology is a combination of a set of goals and the plans to achieve them. I certainly want people who takes decisions to be ideological.

    Besides, letting non-elected officers do the ruling is something I often see and it is never pretty. It often happens when the administration knows there must be a reglament for something, but does not want to bother, so they enact a law which reads "[...] and the rules regarding this matter will be published by Agency XYZ". When the agency is a branch of the military you are granted that the rules will swing one way and another every time the head honcho of the agency changes as new officers are promoted into leadership and old ones are moved to other agencies.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:02:27
    Re: Re: No pi stock anywhere and delivery times out to end 2023!
    By: Ahem A Rivet's Shot to TimS on Thu May 19 2022 07:29 am

    Oh and quite a lot of the populace are generally happy about the
    idea of unifying Europe, some even think of themselves as European first
    and their nationality second. There are also people who want the bad old days of "my country first" back - that's retrograde and most know it but it can be a seductive call.


    I beg to differ. Nobody I know in real life considers themselves European over Spanish, and none of them would have Spain be a State in a confederative/federative arrangement.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thursday, May 19, 2022 17:40:17
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 09:12:17 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    And that has been a fucking disaster as well.

    Far from it, a resounding success would be more accurate, nobody
    wants to go back to the bad old days of currency exchange.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Mike Scott on Thursday, May 19, 2022 18:26:30
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 14:17:33 +0100
    Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

    or 4) between RoI and mainland Europe.

    In a word "HELL NO", that would be totally unacceptable. Ireland is
    a member of the EU and fully entitled to the four freedoms and all the
    other benefits of EU membership, the UK don't get to take that away from Ireland or have any say at all in Ireland's international relationships
    (other than with the UK).

    Not that Brussels would ever have accepted that, but it seems less
    intrusive than a border within a single nation.

    For the UK to interfere in the relations between another country
    and the supranational organisation it is a member of seems less intrusive
    than the UK sorting out its own dirty linen - that's a *very* strange viewpoint.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Jan Panteltje on Thursday, May 19, 2022 18:25:03
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:18:19 GMT
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    .. A common language for the whole EU? I dunno, grin: Think English is
    out now they left, OTOH then all have to learn it so equal effort for everybody, why not.

    English is I think the most common second language in the EU -
    phone a business in Germany and ask "Do you speak English" and the answer
    is likely to be "Of course" in an offended tone (in which case they'll be pretty fluent with the occasional odd word, phrasing or hesitation) or "A little" in which case they could probably teach English at advanced level
    in the UK.

    As for the Dutch - I have had the experience of trying out my (very limited and undoubtedly appallingly accented) Dutch only to be answered in fluent English. This is apparently a common Dutch trick - deducing the other persons language from the way the mangle Dutch and using it to reply.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to TimS on Thursday, May 19, 2022 18:17:42
    On 19 May 2022 09:33:57 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:


    It's the EU that has the problem, not us.

    WRONG! The UK has created a land border with the EU it is the UKs responsibility to solve the problems that causes and to do so within the
    terms of the Good Friday Agreement to which the UK is signatory.

    It is the UK's problem that they have backed themselves into an impossible corner.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Richard Falken on Thursday, May 19, 2022 18:37:47
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:02:27 +1200 nospam.Richard.Falken@f1.n770.z10576.fidonet.org (Richard Falken) wrote:

    Re: Re: No pi stock anywhere and delivery times out to end 2023!
    By: Ahem A Rivet's Shot to TimS on Thu May 19 2022 07:29 am

    Oh and quite a lot of the populace are generally happy about
    the idea of unifying Europe, some even think of themselves as European first and their nationality second. There are also people who want the
    bad old days of "my country first" back - that's retrograde and most
    know it but it can be a seductive call.


    I beg to differ. Nobody I know in real life considers themselves European

    I have encountered people thinking that way in Germany, Austria, Ireland and Holland. It's not common but it happens.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Folderol@3:770/3 to Folderol on Thursday, May 19, 2022 19:34:25
    XPost: uk.politics

    On Thu, 19 May 2022 16:25:36 +0100
    Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> wrote:

    Please take this totally off topic politics to uk.poitics

    Or would you like me to just cross-post it there?

    Well, I asked nicely.

    --
    Basic

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thursday, May 19, 2022 20:01:24
    On 19/05/2022 18:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 09:33:57 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:


    It's the EU that has the problem, not us.

    WRONG! The UK has created a land border with the EU it is the UKs responsibility to solve the problems that causes and to do so within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement to which the UK is signatory.


    The Land Border has always existed? I don't see where it states in the
    Good Friday Agreement that the UK is responsible for the South closing
    the border?

    It's been 25 years, anyway, high time the Irish learnt to get along with
    each other.



    It is the UK's problem that they have backed themselves into an impossible corner.


    Hopefully NI will opt for reunification, and then the EU can
    subsidise/deal with them. They are a lovely bunch :o).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Pancho on Thursday, May 19, 2022 19:22:55
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:01:24 +0100, Pancho wrote:

    On 19/05/2022 18:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 09:33:57 GMT TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:


    It's the EU that has the problem, not us.

    WRONG! The UK has created a land border with the EU it is the UKs
    responsibility to solve the problems that causes and to do so within
    the terms of the Good Friday Agreement to which the UK is signatory.


    The Land Border has always existed? I don't see where it states in the
    Good Friday Agreement that the UK is responsible for the South closing
    the border?

    Since 1927.

    The problem there is twofold:
    - neither side of the land border wants customs posts on it.
    - as I said elsewhere said land border is at least as much of a
    topological mess as the Dutch/Belgian one: I believe that, if strictly
    drawn it would bisect houses, roads and farmyards


    It's been 25 years, anyway, high time the Irish learnt to get along with
    each other.

    Thats pretty much solved now.


    It is the UK's problem that they have backed themselves into an
    impossible corner.


    Spoddon. Boris and his hangers on are by and large so self-centered that
    they were incapable of realising that theit BIG IDEA, a border in the
    Irish Sea, might not be either workable or acceptable to the DUP, let
    alone that it is, in fact, both.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to Folderol on Thursday, May 19, 2022 21:27:18
    On 2022-05-19, Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> wrote:
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 16:25:36 +0100
    Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> wrote:

    Please take this totally off topic politics to uk.poitics

    Or would you like me to just cross-post it there?

    Well, I asked nicely.


    Yes, I too wish they'd take their off topic discussion out of here. But
    usenet is usenet - nearly all the bad habits of social media started on
    usenet ages ago, and continue today.

    Soory to add more noise.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Pancho on Thursday, May 19, 2022 22:14:19
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:01:24 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    On 19/05/2022 18:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 09:33:57 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:


    It's the EU that has the problem, not us.

    WRONG! The UK has created a land border with the EU it is the
    UKs responsibility to solve the problems that causes and to do so
    within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement to which the UK is
    signatory.


    The Land Border has always existed? I don't see where it states in the
    Good Friday Agreement that the UK is responsible for the South closing
    the border?

    Quite the opposite, it is AIUI impossible to square creating a hard customs border on the island of Ireland with the GFA. The fact that it is
    also incredibly difficult is another problem that could be solved it just requires a *lot* of work and a *lot* of detail negotiation - it'd probably
    take a century to do the job.

    The UK is responsible for creating a border between the UK and the
    EU that must be closed under international law and for the self interest of BOTH sides. Most of that border is ocean which is easy but some of it is on
    the island of Ireland.

    The UK has signed an agreement (the GFA) that says it won't be
    between NI and the ROI. The UK government has promised the DUP that it
    won't be between the UK and NI - but they put it there anyway.

    Until the UK left the EU the provisions of the CTA, the four
    freedoms of the EU and the GFA meant that the border between ROI and NI was irrelevant.

    The UK chose to leave the EU and the single market and so goods,
    money, people and services no longer travel freely between the EU and the
    UK. Which means border controls are required of BOTH sides by international law. The UK has to find a place for them that satisfies all of their obligations. They've painted themselves into a corner.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Friday, May 20, 2022 09:01:50
    On 19/05/2022 22:14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:01:24 +0100
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    On 19/05/2022 18:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 09:33:57 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:


    It's the EU that has the problem, not us.

    WRONG! The UK has created a land border with the EU it is the
    UKs responsibility to solve the problems that causes and to do so
    within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement to which the UK is
    signatory.


    The Land Border has always existed? I don't see where it states in the
    Good Friday Agreement that the UK is responsible for the South closing
    the border?

    Quite the opposite, it is AIUI impossible to square creating a hard customs border on the island of Ireland with the GFA. The fact that it is also incredibly difficult is another problem that could be solved it just requires a *lot* of work and a *lot* of detail negotiation - it'd probably take a century to do the job.

    The UK is responsible for creating a border between the UK and the
    EU that must be closed under international law and for the self interest of BOTH sides.

    AIUI International law doesn't dictate a closed border. If you mean
    impose standard tariffs, I didn't think it specified how they were to be enforced. An obvious alternative was electronic tracking.

    Most of that border is ocean which is easy but some of it is on
    the island of Ireland.

    The UK has signed an agreement (the GFA) that says it won't be
    between NI and the ROI.

    Where does it say that?


    The UK government has promised the DUP that it
    won't be between the UK and NI - but they put it there anyway.

    Until the UK left the EU the provisions of the CTA, the four
    freedoms of the EU and the GFA meant that the border between ROI and NI was irrelevant.

    The UK chose to leave the EU and the single market and so goods,
    money, people and services no longer travel freely between the EU and the
    UK. Which means border controls are required of BOTH sides by international law.

    Exactly which international law is that?

    The UK has to find a place for them that satisfies all of their
    obligations. They've painted themselves into a corner.


    You are talking like London cares? AIUI the current protocol is fine.
    However, if they don't like it, NI are free to come up with obvious
    alternative solutions. It is time they stopped demanding special needs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Friday, May 20, 2022 11:42:50
    On 19/05/2022 18:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 14:17:33 +0100
    Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

    or 4) between RoI and mainland Europe.

    In a word "HELL NO", that would be totally unacceptable. Ireland is
    a member of the EU and fully entitled to the four freedoms and all the
    other benefits of EU membership, the UK don't get to take that away from Ireland or have any say at all in Ireland's international relationships (other than with the UK).

    Except that that is exactly the arrangement the EU wants to impose upon
    the UK




    --
    If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
    eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
    time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
    and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
    important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
    the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
    truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

    Joseph Goebbels

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Friday, May 20, 2022 11:40:04
    On 19/05/2022 17:40, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 09:12:17 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    And that has been a fucking disaster as well.

    Far from it, a resounding success would be more accurate, nobody
    wants to go back to the bad old days of currency exchange.

    Oh dear. I but stuff from all over the world with no bad old days of
    currency exchange. Since no one uses cash, no one cares what the
    exchange rate is really. My credit card works in Sweden, (kroner) Europe (Europe) USA (dollars) S Africa (Rand) Mexico (whatever they use) and
    dozens of countries I haven't visited.

    You see the best way to harmonise is not via a dictatorship, it is by
    consent.

    The point about local currencies is that they allow nations with
    different standards of living to adjust their currencies. If you enforce
    the same currency you get Greece, (or Mississippi).



    --
    If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
    eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
    time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
    and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
    important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
    the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
    truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

    Joseph Goebbels

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Friday, May 20, 2022 11:41:46
    On 19/05/2022 18:37, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    I have encountered people thinking that way in Germany, Austria,
    Ireland and Holland. It's not common but it happens.

    Strangely enough the people who have gained the most from EU membership
    Now ask in Italy, Greece, France, Portugal, Spain...

    --
    If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
    eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
    time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
    and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
    important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
    the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
    truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

    Joseph Goebbels

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Friday, May 20, 2022 11:58:38
    On 19/05/2022 20:22, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:01:24 +0100, Pancho wrote:

    On 19/05/2022 18:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On 19 May 2022 09:33:57 GMT TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:


    It's the EU that has the problem, not us.

    WRONG! The UK has created a land border with the EU it is the UKs
    responsibility to solve the problems that causes and to do so within
    the terms of the Good Friday Agreement to which the UK is signatory.


    The Land Border has always existed? I don't see where it states in the
    Good Friday Agreement that the UK is responsible for the South closing
    the border?

    Since 1927.

    The problem there is twofold:
    - neither side of the land border wants customs posts on it.
    - as I said elsewhere said land border is at least as much of a
    topological mess as the Dutch/Belgian one: I believe that, if strictly
    drawn it would bisect houses, roads and farmyards

    Oh indeed.

    It was common for cows to be driven from one side of the border to
    another and back to collect export grants , several times in one day.




    It's been 25 years, anyway, high time the Irish learnt to get along with
    each other.

    Thats pretty much solved now.


    Only insofar as the IRA didnt see a way to achieve anything more except
    their own demise by continuing. They were completely penetrated and all
    members were known, and unsolved murders were common...,

    It is the UK's problem that they have backed themselves into an
    impossible corner.


    Spoddon. Boris and his hangers on are by and large so self-centered that
    they were incapable of realising that theit BIG IDEA, a border in the
    Irish Sea, might not be either workable or acceptable to the DUP, let
    alone that it is, in fact, both.


    The border does not work because the EU doesn't want it to work. For
    some reasons they want to punish the UK by acquiring NI. Lords knows why.





    --
    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
    always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

    Margaret Thatcher

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Friday, May 20, 2022 12:03:36
    On 19/05/2022 22:14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Until the UK left the EU the provisions of the CTA, the four
    freedoms of the EU and the GFA meant that the border between ROI and NI was irrelevant.

    The UK chose to leave the EU and the single market and so goods,
    money, people and services no longer travel freely between the EU and the
    UK. Which means border controls are required of BOTH sides by international law. The UK has to find a place for them that satisfies all of their obligations. They've painted themselves into a corner.

    No, the point is simple. The GFA is null and void. Since one of its
    signatories has ceased to exist - the EU *province* of the united
    kingdom, is now a *nation*. But I think you will find that international
    law does not require that borders are maintained.

    It merely allows nations to erect them. if they so choose.

    All a border is, is the limit of jurisdiction of national law.





    --
    Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
    people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
    they are poor.

    Peter Thompson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Friday, May 20, 2022 11:54:42
    On 19/05/2022 20:01, Pancho wrote:
    Hopefully NI will opt for reunification, and then the EU can
    subsidise/deal with them. They are a lovely bunch :o).
    They wont. The reason NI is part of te UK is that the NI unionist feared
    at one time (with reasonable justification) that without the UK to
    protect them they would be murdered in their beds.

    Now quite why the catholic community (to protect whom, the British Army
    first went to NI, to be cleaverly distracted by the IRA attacking
    them...) would want to murder Unionists in their beds, goes back a long way.

    The NI is nearly as heavily subsidised as Scotland - its economy would
    collapse if it was reunified and its people would feel strangers in
    someone else's country.

    Remember Britain would gladly have thrown Ireland to Sinn Fein years ago
    if it had not been for the wishes of the NI people themselves.

    And not much has changed - opinion poles show that the protestant North
    - while disgusted with their politicians - and who isnt - still firmly
    want to remain part of the UK. As do the Majority of Scots.

    The fact is that the GFA was null and void the moment the UK left the
    EU. Force majeure. A treaty signed by two EU countries is null and void
    when one of them leaves. Instead of working out a new arrangement the EU
    forced NI to remain in the EU. Putting the border down the Irish sea. In
    the middle of the UK.

    Naturally this doesn't work.




    --
    "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

    Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Friday, May 20, 2022 12:44:06
    On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:03:36 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    No, the point is simple. The GFA is null and void.

    Oh Yipee bring back the troubles, free bombs for all.

    I notice that the US government seems to disagree with you, quite strongly.

    Since one of its
    signatories has ceased to exist - the EU *province* of the united
    kingdom, is now a *nation*.

    The status of Northern Ireland has not changed in the slightest. It
    is and always (well since the UK first took over Ireland) has been part of
    the United Kingdom. It has never been an EU province - there's no such
    thing.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Friday, May 20, 2022 12:44:11
    On Fri, 20 May 2022 11:40:04 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The point about local currencies is that they allow nations with
    different standards of living to adjust their currencies. If you enforce
    the same currency you get Greece, (or Mississippi).

    This is why London and Yorkshire have different currencies right ?

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mike Scott@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Friday, May 20, 2022 13:57:13
    On 20/05/2022 11:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 19/05/2022 18:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Thu, 19 May 2022 14:17:33 +0100
    Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

    or 4) between RoI and mainland Europe.

        In a word "HELL NO", that would be totally unacceptable. Ireland is >> a member of the EU and fully entitled to the four freedoms and all the
    other benefits of EU membership, the UK don't get to take that away from
    Ireland or have any say at all in Ireland's international relationships
    (other than with the UK).

    Except that that is exactly the arrangement the EU wants to impose upon
    the UK

    Precisely the point I was trying to make.

    And the 'dirty linen' could well be viewed as the EU's that we've been
    fool enough to offer to launder.


    But enough; this is well OT for this group.



    --
    Mike Scott
    Harlow, England

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Friday, May 20, 2022 12:58:41
    On 20 May 2022 at 12:44:06 BST, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:03:36 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    No, the point is simple. The GFA is null and void.

    Oh Yipee bring back the troubles, free bombs for all.

    I notice that the US government seems to disagree with you, quite strongly.

    That's because it doesn't know its arse from a hole in the ground.

    Since one of its signatories has ceased to exist - the EU *province* of the united
    kingdom, is now a *nation*.

    The status of Northern Ireland has not changed in the slightest. It
    is and always (well since the UK first took over Ireland) has been part of the United Kingdom. It has never been an EU province - there's no such
    thing.

    He wasn't referring to NI.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Friday, May 20, 2022 12:56:15
    On 20 May 2022 at 11:58:38 BST, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The border does not work because the EU doesn't want it to work. For
    some reasons they want to punish the UK by acquiring NI. Lords knows why.

    It's punishment for having the temerity to leave the EU, which as Mr Rivet and chums say is the most wonderful enitity in the world in space in the universe. In the multiverse, even. You'll remember that famous set of EU Constitution referendums, voted down by the public. So they repackaged it as a treaty (Lisbon Treaty) which would then be passed by governments so the populace
    could be ignored. Even then, the Irish Republic's constitution required a referendum, which didn't pass. At which point some EU bigwigs were heard to
    say that they'd have to vote again until "they got the right answer".

    At least the Lisbon Treaty contained a clause for leaving the EU, although it was never intended that it should be used. So the UK's decision to invoke its treaty rights has to be punished too.

    It's a bit like that hotel where you can check out but you can't leave.

    --
    Tim

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    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Friday, May 20, 2022 14:07:47
    On 20/05/2022 13:58, TimS wrote:
    On 20 May 2022 at 12:44:06 BST, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:03:36 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    No, the point is simple. The GFA is null and void.

    Oh Yipee bring back the troubles, free bombs for all.

    I notice that the US government seems to disagree with you, quite
    strongly.

    That's because it doesn't know its arse from a hole in the ground.

    Since one of its signatories has ceased to exist - the EU *province* of the united
    kingdom, is now a *nation*.

    The status of Northern Ireland has not changed in the slightest. It
    is and always (well since the UK first took over Ireland) has been part of >> the United Kingdom. It has never been an EU province - there's no such
    thing.

    He wasn't referring to NI.

    https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/European_regions

    Full list of European provinces. Ulster is one of them.

    England comprises 5 others, scotland and wales two more




    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

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  • From Brian Gregory@3:770/3 to All on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 16:27:52
    https://rpilocator.com/

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

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